Deck Delamination / Core Problems

[ebb]

Capt. Greg.
Looks like the Tritons have done the deck core every way possible.
And so have the Ariels. The real problems have to do with the choice of materials and the experience you have with epoxy. (The general and correct concensus is Not to use poleyester because it won't 'glue' new work to old.)

I would not use fir plywood as a core material - the quality is bad, it's full of voids and laminating skins or 1/4" stuff down would be even more of a problem with voids and potlife. APA plywood is junk, even marine grade.

I would support the fordeck with thin ply and battens inside using a bottle jack or two Very Gently, just snug, befor I cut into the deck up top. No force at all - one you cut you don't want the inside to be forced up in any way. 338, perhaps because it was late in the Ariel run, or late in the day, has a very thin inner layer of mat that I feel would be too flimsey to keep integrity if the whole foredeck was removed. Especially if you worry the surface smooth with grinding and sanding - or a knee.

Personally, I would do the foredeck completely. Then the sides. because of the weight of the coach roof. I think I'd want the front of the coach roof supported by the new composit deck. The strength of this type of costruction comes primarily from the skin. The deck composit is of primary importance in the integrity of the boat. I have argued in the past here that even the two main bulkheads do not support the deck structure. I would. Note down some measurements from the inside deck to the sole as a redundant check.

In case someone hasn't made this clear: I would juice the work with plain runny epoxy with a brush befor laying down the baltec or foam which you will probably spread with a thin coat of thickened epoxy.

If you feel you have to go with interior support befor you start, you might bend up some easily bent battens into the curve with a squirt of yellow glue between the layers and let it set. I haven't done this, but I think I would. Two or three of these temporary beams held up by a single two X four and a jack would support the aft part of the foredeck while you work the top. The front half of the deck with its factory piece of ply glassed in for the mooring cleat is probably not going to move, much.

Good luck! Take photos! Let us see your torture!

[Greg]

Hearing all people have to say: here, the Triton Forum, the wife...I think I will go after the deck a piece at a time. I was getting myself a little overwhelmed by the prospect of the poor old sweetie out there in the yard with her innards showin'. Bad enough she doesn't have any paint on her topsides anymore. Scabby and ugly is the order of the day out there and it's getting depressing to look at.

I really need to keep costs down, bein' an old retired guy. Sometimes I get kinda lonely feelin' like I the only one who can't afford stuff. It's good to know there are others, especially here, to whom "expensive" can mean hundreds instead of thousands.

[ebb]

Capt. Greg,
Do it with polyester, then. At least you have Don Casey in your corner. You might even do it with ply if you can soak the hell out of it as you lay it in. Punky ply, one could argue is perfect because the polyester will soak in good.
Remember (hope I'm not patronizing) epoxy sticks to polyester (after a suitable cure time) not the other way around. So you can start with the poly and fix things up with the expensive.

E h ! Go out and start cutting! I realy do believe a deckcore could be done with polyester. The core has to be compatible,

[commanderpete]

Good stuff here.

I've got a question. When you cut out the deck, can you follow the outline of the nonskid? If you have to go wider, how much wider?

The core gets thinner towards the sides. How would you handle any mushy core beyond where you cut?

The link below is just an article I had come across on foam cores. Its too technical for me, but somebody might find it interesting.

http://boatdesign.net/articles/foam-core/index.htm

[ebb]

C'pete,
Good questions!
It would indeed be good to know where the balsa peters out. If it is in the vacinity of the anti-slip pattern on the deck, seems that would be an excellent line to cut to. Will aid in hiding the join of old to new if the old anti-slip pattern is reused. Good idea. What happens to the balsa so close to the toe-rail? Maybe you'ld have to cut a little further in? Away from the toe?

I've been preparing the coachroof hatch for it's new Bomar. Required that the up flange be cut away and the hole made larger. You get to see at lot of sideview balsa core this way. As I mentioned earlier, the core varies in thickness around the square cutout, no doubt because ofthe compound curves in this wonderfully sculpted area.

Decided, that instead of drilling larger holes to be filled with epoxy as the anti-leak 'gasket' protection of the core for the multitude of fastenings needed for the hatch, decided I would evacuate the balsa in a 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" deep channel all round. Different thickness made it a challenge.
Used a 80 grit flexible cut off on the Makita (because it was thin, got hot and wasn't very efficient.)
A 4" 36 grit cloth-backed sanding disk on an arbor in the drill (because it is slower.)
Used the dremel tool with various burrs and bits (generally disappointing, but it got the corners emptied, and the dremel very hot.)
Used a 4" orange nylon string flapper wheel that scoured the inside surfaces of the upper and lower frp of tenacious wood. Didn't have to worry about removing the edge any. Don't believe that leaving a bit of wood in there on the inner surfaces of the frp would make any difference after filling.
Best was the sanding disk. The grit on the outer-edge did all the digging and was thin enuf to get in the norrows Being somewhat bendy gave some leeway in holding the tool. Didn't have to worry about the smooth side cutting something it shouldn't. That old frp is very hard stuff.

I think that might be a way to clear the balsa out of the cut at the toe rail when during a recore. You can reverse the disk and have that 'safe' side to depend on. Safer than a small sawblade, eg, because you can correct your working angle befor you've committed a lamentable desecration. There probably are other 'wheels' out there, like wire (they're either too flimsey or too aggressive) that maybe would work better.

For somebody planing to recore and reglue the deck back, it would be great to know eactly where the old core thins down at the rail. Make the job that much more FUN!

Some thought IMCO has to be given to what is the best method of joining the new deck to the C'hannel at the side. I admit I haven't studied the Recorer's ramificate on this important seam. Probably involve folding some wetted-out cloth or light x-mat into the groove with deliberate overlapping onto the core itself top and bottom. Divinycell foam can be carved down nearly to a knife edge with coarse sanding cloth.

[I would use baltec, by the way, because most of it is still pretty good on 338 after 40 yrs, and I will waterproof the deck as best I can with the most expensive coatings known in the civilized world. The best modern house paints are guaranteed for longer than most marriages last these days. That's good enough for me]

[Greg]

Nothing anyone tells me is ever perceived as patronizing...I have never done any of this stuff before so each step is onto uncharted ground and I appreciate all the advice I get. I will use epoxy because it is what I am more familiar with and because it seems to be the concensus choice.

I started on the coach roof last night making small exploratory holes under where the handrails were. Wet, squishy balsa was the order of the evening. Wet and squishy, but still pretty well stuck to the lower skin. All in all, not as traumatic as I first imagined. I hardly got the shakes at all...thanks for the confidence builders!

[marymandara]

My 2 cents' worth for the day...after spending yesterday working on the core job...

Definitely need to brace like mad. Lots of thin ply and bits of 2x4 and 1x2. Lots. Coachroof is especially critical...the best pics I've found of this is Jeff Maher's boat on the NTA site.

Jeff used a fish gaff sharpened to a chisel point to get out the balsa left in the cavity. I reworked the core in a Ranger 23 once, too...my advice, LEAVE NO BALSA ANYWHERE! If you leave it and it's OK today, if it's no good in 5 years you will be SOL for doing anything about it.

Conventional wisdom is to cut about 2-1/2" from the edge of things, and so far I would concur. To re-tab, Ebb has the idea just right, after it is all kicked off you grind a trough a couple inches wide and pretty much down to the point where it breaks thru at it's deepest (it's a dished trough, right?), then tab it with layeres of stitch mat.

Epoxy is definitely the stuff of choice...if nothing else, you want/need the working time. Use slow hardener!

Core Material is a topic of some debate, but the Triton guys who've used foam materials have for the most part been unhappy later...it doesn't work out well over time, it seems...James Baldwin has reported no problems, but he 'glassed new and heavy over the top, with much frustration and effort. Some use marine ply, some balsa, some Nida Core which is a PVC honeycomb material. I don't want wood back in there if I can help it, for obvious reasons. Ply is way heavy, and the deck weight is fairly high up...I like stability and performance. Balsa is very spendy anymore, and I don't want it anyhow. I chose to use the Nida because guys have had excellent results, and the material was cheap at less than 60.00 a sheet. You can do an entire Triton on 3 sheets! It does, however, soak up resin like nobody's business...figure 5 to 7 GALLONS, plus hardener, on the Triton job. The cost in the end is a bit higher than balsa, and the weight a bit less than ply. Jeff's advice was to wait SEVERAL DAYS before removing the clamping weights (bricks) and inner bracing, and that the decks don't go full stiff for about a week...but that when finished it is STIFF! My kinda deal.

If you haven't already, check out also Tim Lackey's excellent website at www.triton381.com to see his recore job and detailed commentary from his working over of Triton 381, GLISSANDO. Tim used ply, and a bit different approach to a couple elements of the job, but most of it is analagous to any material you might choose. Probably the best "how-to" of a recore I've seen on the web.

Forget the nonskid...you're going way farther than saving that. Your water channels will be (re)created/defined when you lay on your new nonskid. This is not a job that leaves just small scars.
On my Ranger, I used these granules that System 3 sold in a quart can...about 6 cans' worth. Punched holes in the lid to make a shaker, masked my outlines, rolled out a thin coat of resin, and shook on until you couldn't see deck. Vacuumed off the next day, sidfted/filtered the excess for reuse, went again at next area, etc. Once it was painted it looked like some kind of a factory job...but it was a lot of work. Triton 397 gets an easier treatment that I learned from my buddy...mix up a bunch of balloons into the resin, trowel it on with a spreader as evenly as you can, and as it starts to go off pull up a texture with a wall texture paint roller. Makes for a very aggressive nonskid that looks pretty good under paint. Falling on it might really suck, but it is not uncomfortable to sit on. Looks more fishboat than yacht, but I think of old Pearsons as a sort of industrial chic anyway...sort of a cross between traditional wood boat and early-50's Grumman aircraft industrial. Just my aesthetic. Also easy and cheap!

Last thought---tools. Most important tool I am using is a DA sander with a 6 inch pad. Jobs like this are what air tools are made for...don't kid yourself. I've got a couple real nice 5-inch electric random orbit sanders and they don't begin to do what a proper DA does. Spend the $$$ and get a real, professional tool...China's finest don't make it for this one. You need LOTS of air to run one of these...over 10 CFM. Without air tools, I'd have no hope of ever finishing this job in my lifetime<G>! You can knock off ALL of the old nonskid that you need to in about an hour with 60 grit, and it will be nicely done! When most of it is gone, just evenly feather the edges down into the old white areas. Slightly increased crown on deck, and smooth. Remember not to go too nuts, as you'll have plenty of sanding/grinding and fairing to do after the skins are back down and it's a lot easier to have the meat left on the 'glass and fair by cutting down on it as much as possible to minimize filling, than to fill like mad forever and ever in order to have something to cut down.

It feels real good when you get that first skin off!

Dave

[ebb]

Capt. Greg,
Seems like you have a real job just getting all the info (or 'opinions' as someone once said) into some kind of plan.
When you open up the coachroof let us know where the balsa starts thining, ok? Over the windows, and the hatch logs for that matter. If you can, post photos! It all looks professional if you vacuum first!

Shoot first, pay the consequences later. There is always a way out of any problem, you may not have forseen it, but that makes it interesting!

If you don't feel like you have the bucks to cop out to technologic hype(viz e poxy) then by all means put another method together. There NEEDS to be a cheaper fix than this corporate ripoff that epoxy is.

And look at it another way: you don't have to make your upgrade last 40 years, so use pinewood strips if you want, and roofing tar. And polyester is just fine for this application because its almost all new work - if you have to cover it with a layer of fiberglass, so what? You grind and sand til it looks good - then you sand and paint until it's sm o o o th as a baby's bottom. The spirit of your boat will show you the way, it don't lie. Really.

If you are anywhere near my age you already know it doesn't matter. Nothing matters.
Just being with this beautyful boat means you won't make any mistakes. Just little ones. And you will be forgiven for anything you ever did when you put your baby back in the water!!!

Gee, sounds like religeon. Better git out there befor they pass the plate.


[Greg, I must add here that I have NOT used polyester for the recore. That IS merely opinion. Second, the epoxy I use is very expensive but IMCO a much safer material than polyester with its styrene content and the acetone you'ld probably use in conjunction: BAD mothers. 100% solids epoxy is low odor, and extremely easy to use with normal precautions - it makes you an expert. Alcohol for clean up, or white vinegar. The only unknown with epoxy is its set up time, you have to sweat that part, but you know that if you've got the proportions correct and it sets up, you can grind away any mistake and just do it over. The next epoxy will bond just fine.]

[Tony G]

Greg
Boy, I'm gettin all excited just thinking about the recore job ahead of you. 'Don't know how far Appleton is from here but I'm ready to pack a lunch and head out! Form the limited probing I've done and the few(but large)holes 113 has in her decks it seems that the bulk of the coring goes up to within an inch or 1 1/4" from the botton of the toe rail. That's where I'd cut. Seems no matter where you start everybody agrees that the digging and scraping doesn't come easy. Dave is right, brace her up on the inside and I'd use construction site refuse because you won't really need anything longer than 3' and who cares if the 2 by 4 is twisted,warped or straight. It'll really stink because I know how nice it is to just go below to sit and take it all in And yes, Tim's site gives a real good 'how to' or 'how I did' lesson in recoring. I've bought several books and in essence it all comes back to what Tim has on his site for free(but now I know).
Here's a hole in 113's side deck about even with the middle of the aft main cabin port. The white sealant is now gone and the core was pretty much directly behind it in this photo. Hope this helps. Tony G

[ebb]

What a strange hole!
Must have been for a flower pot.

[ebb]

Good stuff Dave and Tony,
Looking at that hole at the toe rail.....We're not seeing any old balsa core right? So let's say you got solid 1 1/2" plus in from the toe rail. I'ld want to make the cut thru the top then further in than where the original factory molded antislip stops. If you can't make the joint by poking glass into a groove or excavated channel in the composit then your locking seam has to be the dished out stripe on the top spanning old and new that you fill with glass cloth and/or mat. Of course this is done after the new deck is on and hard. Minimum width 4" if done with epoxy. If the inside has been prepped, I would add at least one 4" strip of heavy X-matt inside under the join. IMCO.

I know that if I ended up with a checkerboard of original deck pasted back onto the new core, even if I used epoxy thruout, I would add a layer or two of one piece glass from toerail to toerail over the whole deck. Light stuff, just to make sure that I had skin integrity in the reconstructed composit.

[There is another concern here (Mike and I posted on this, way in the past) and there is so much on this subject that this may be very redundant:

You read experts who caution not to glass over gell coat. I've done a lot of epoxy filling below the waterline that has been faired on to (well-grinded) gelcoat. It was pointed out that any mold-release or wax was now gone after 40 years. Not having done it, it must be nearly impossible to grind all the gellcoat and molded tred off the deck. It is the gellcoat on the boat that stress cracks and crumbles in some instances. So the question is: how much do you have to remove to ensure that the new work is not going to peel in the future? I'm inclined to believe that if you grind down to the translucent green and the white stuff left seems to be bonded to the laminate that it is ok to consider this a bondable surface.
What is the consensus on this?]

[Sprite]

Mike,

I have the mushy stuff on the portside on the walkway to the
side of the cabin. I don't like the starboard walkway or the front a
head of the cabin. It seems to be leaking through the chainplates
and the bureau and wall seem to have water damage and I will probably be replacing all of it just to play it safe. I haven't
really seen anything with the cabin roof is it better to nail
it anyway, or forget it ? What should I be looking for in the interior skin in the water damaged area is it fiberglass or
plywood should it be replaced and with what material.


John

P.S. The anchor chain pipe fitting I am moving to a more forward position on the starboard side but I have the old hole and it's
four inche's by 21/2 inches. What should be the procedure of filling it in. It's kinda big?

[Greg]

Ebb, Tony et al. Thanks for all the advice. I think the deck job is gonna have to wait until springtime. I don't want to get halfway into it and have the weather turn sour. I think I will just finish the outside of the hull and then work on the interior over winter. I have removed most of the paint from the hull above the waterline and I'm starting to repair dings and errant scraper gouges before fairing and painting. The list gets longer and longer.

When I repair the deck I will be using epoxy...I will be using the tools I have and replace the core with whatever seems right when I reach that point. I don't want to have to do that job over so I will do it right, however, "right" is a pretty conditional word. Like Ebb says, working on the boat is an end itself. It's theraputic...all that sanding and scraping. Doesn't require much thought so your mind can wander: imagining wind and wave, warm sandy beaches, midnight watches, distant shores...makes a guy kinda drooly and misty eyed.

The whole thing is theraputic...sanding, scraping, fairing, planning, imagining. All part of the process. I'll og ooutside tomorrow and take some pictures of the messes I've made so far.

[ebb]

The epoxy I use is good down to 40 degrees F. You can warm the boat up inside with a heater, Especially with this deck job. Cover with black plastic (won't stick) to help it kick off.

Check out the www.epoxyproducts.com site. This guy flogs many vendors, so he's not commited to any manufacturer's system. He's very opinionated, the site is a gas! A little eccentric, which I'm more friendly with. Here is where you learn not to trust and use adulterated epoxies that you can buy at your local seveneleven marine store. He's a lot cheaper than retail. He'll answer your questions. He sells epoxies that will set up under water, So he may have a laminating version (thin) that will work where you are.

Which Spring are you talking about?

[marymandara]

Hi, all...
I was getting ready to cut the side deck skins today, and started thinking about the rigidity and shape of the hull...obviously for best performance we want as uniform a shape as we can get, and it suddenly struck me that the deck makes up quite a bit of rigidity! Another fellow I know has an identical Triton out in the yard on an identical bunk. His is of course assembled, making for much more weight up high, and on top of that the stick has been lowered for transport and secured to the pulpit, coachroof and pushpit. Reason would have it that his boat should be flexier than mine, as while some of my interior has been cut away I still have the majority of structural bulkheads in place. Wrong!!!
I have had occasion to A/B the two, and mine is floppy. Has to be the decks. There was almost nowhere you could step in a cored area that the deck didn't oilcan badly if you weigh 170 pounds like I do, or in places if you weigh 55 pounds like Junior!

If the hull is out of shape and I recore well, the hull is going to be forever locked in that distorted shape by the newly rigid and sound decks .


Point being, that if the boat isn't level, some distortion is going to happen in the hull from the weight on the jack pads...not on an old Pearson, huh? Guess again!
Bear in mind that the hull thickness is not near so huge as we roll up above the keel root, and gets much thinner(!) up by the deck/hull joint. Check out the pics from the deck removal at Tim Lackey's Triton Daysailor site!

So, armed with a long level and my smallest, lightest, most patient helper (who is also 7 years old) I set about to deal with it. The question comes to mind just what and where to trust on the boat. We set the level across the toerails up forward and found that the boat needed to come up almost an inch at the rail to make it right. Since I have the coamings off now, we laid the level across the cockpit sills and found the reading differed only slightly. Tried a shorter level across the lips of the cockpit locker openings and found it to concur. Further investigation showed that the Stbd. toe rail is in fact about 1/16" SHORTER than the one to port(!) and that accounted for the near total of the discrepancy.

Now, the question also begs as to just how swell the uniformity of the hull shape might or might not have been held at the time the deck went on...they really pumped these boats out, so who knows. I just didn't want to compound whatever problems may be there.

My boat is set up on a 6-pad bunk, and because of the number of people who are sometimes working at one time, I have a v-head jack under the bow and two extra jacks placed well aft to minimize the shimmy of the bunk and oilcanning (well, as much oilcanning as glass this heavy will do as it flexes) of the hull. I had a fair ways to go, so I patiently used all the screws (I found that the most significant pushes are from the aft) and cranked it upright in small and gentle increments. With the boat leaning, I was able to go ahead and loosen the pads I needed to tilt to until they really rattled and then a bit. Took forever. Started with the kid and the level up forward, then checked it aft.

I found a few interesting things. One was that no matter how uniformly I had worked, the boat was out of rack end-to-end by about a 1/4 bubble! Wasn't that way when I started. Hmmm.
I dropped all the pads but the v-head and the two aft jacks, then reset. Closer, but now the whole boat was tilting again! Squared it up one more time, then reset the pads. Real close. Right on. Now to make sure the pads were all bearing evenly...I have a drill for this, which is to drop and reset the center pads first, the bow (obviously with v-head in place) second, the stern last. As I backed off the stbd. center, I was informed that we weren't perfectly level anymore. But...the boat had leaned the OTHER WAY FROM THE SIDE I'D JUST BACKED OFF!

None of the pads were gorilla tight, mind you. One bow and one opposite stern were a bit tighter than the rest. That's all it took to make a "pressure wave" in the hull that did this! We went to the 3-point balance again, then brought up bow, center, stern, far stern. Whenever the bows were tight in this process I would slack and reset the v-head, as well. Went back thru again, Jr. watching the level with Jedi concentration. No movement. Rechecked at the bow, and if we allow for the unequal rail dimensions, we are off about 3/64! Not Bad! Just for grins, I got junior down out of the cockpit and then released the pressure evenly on all of the jack pads. The whole Triton will stand up on the keel blocking and the v-head! Reset the jacks again carefully and we went up to check the level fore and aft. Now, I fib not one bit here, with Jessica as my witness, not one bit of detectible change had occurred!

I also found a couple of other interesting things...when we started leveling, it was easy to push the boat up with the jackscrews, but as we got closer to dead level it became much harder. Also, perhaps very telling as to how much the hull does indeed flex, as you get nearly dead level, ALL the pads will rattle loose all of a sudden! I don't see how this can happen unless the whole hull shape shifts due to the weight all bearing straight down on the keel properly.

Anyway, I hope that this is all of some help and/or interest to anyone who is planning to recore or do any other structural/bulkhead work. As the thicknesses are pretty much identical between the two boats and the Ariel much smaller in surface area, I would think it would be less of a concern for Ariel/Commander...but still worth checking.

Dave