BTW when I tried to go after the soft spots in the cabin roof with the circular saw the other day, I got the shakes so bad I couldn't hold the saw...had to go inside and try to regain my composure. I think I can go on now.
BTW when I tried to go after the soft spots in the cabin roof with the circular saw the other day, I got the shakes so bad I couldn't hold the saw...had to go inside and try to regain my composure. I think I can go on now.
First off, let's hope Mike chimes in and you can ask him. specific questions.
I've done just a smidgeon on 338 digging bigger hatches in and replacing a chunk in way of the mast step on the roof. The obvious way is to attack thru the top. There have been others who have replaced their core from Inside.
My observation is that the inside layer of fiberglass is very thin, and if I was replacing the whole deck I would do it in small sections so as not to loose the camber in the deck. I might consider making templates at one foot stations back from the bow of the deck as it now exists
The top is at least 1/8" thick. varying to thicker where it turns a corner.
I also tore out a piece that was in good condition. It was a bear, literally delaminating the glass mat from the piece of deck where the old polyester had soaked into the endgrain of the balsa. Was really impressed. Because the plastic soaked into the balsa it makes scraping the balsa off the thin inner layer something you have to do really careful.
Also, on the cabin anyway, the balsa varies in thickness, like they had to do some sanding to get it to take the curves. The decks I guess are more predictable....
There isn't anything you can do to your boat that you can't fix with a good grade of epoxy. So layout some lines in the form of a grid, say, and set the carbide saw blade 1/4" on your 5 1/2" skilsaw and cut out a square. In an easy place. See if it prys up easy with your blue prybar.
Voila, you have begun. If you can't stand it, glue it back and sell the boat. No way. So check with Mike and Tim on their procedure. Find out where they started on the deck, how much they deconstructed at a time. and so forth. For instance, if I had to do it I might ask Mike if removing a one foot band of foredeck across from port to starboard and after cleaning it out reolacing it with baltec or Divinycell, whatever, then epoxying the deck back on is a good way to start. You'ld be likely to keep the camber that way. Then repeat with another section next to the new repair.
When you are into it you'll invent your own method and tell us about it!!!
(Be prepared, tho, if there is any good wood in there you'll have a hell of a time prying the deck off.)
Last edited by ebb; 09-05-2003 at 11:37 PM.
Go to the NTA site (www.tritonclass.org) and look at the "project gallery" pictures of Jeff Maher's Triton #30 recore project...take really special note of what he did with shoring up inside before cutting anything to maintain the curvature. Important detail! Jeff did same on all of the areas he worked.
I'm just in the process of cutting the skins off of Triton 397, and have found the skilsaw is not the best tool for the job. Maher used a cutoff disc in an angle grinder, I'm using a cutoff disc in a die grinder in similar fashion.
The voids under the edges get packed in with epoxy thickened with microfibers--not balloons--and before placing the new core it is wetted out and then a layer of the microfiber-thickened epoxy is troweled into the cavity as if one were doing stucco or laying tile. Important to have a few reilef holes so the excess material has somewhere to squeeze out.
James Baldwin did the 'lay neww glass' method on his Triton, ATOM, and sounds like he would never do it that way again...it does sound like an awful lot of work. By reusing the origianl skins you will save a great deal of time and expense, plus have a better guide for the finished deck contour. The skins go back down with the same treatment I described for the core and with a few relief holes. Again, taking a llok at the pics of Jeff's Triton, we can see the nicest way of getting even clamping pressure. if there are edges or corners sticking up. a few judiciously placed sheeetrock screws will do the trick. Make very sure they are square-drives and very sure you have waxed them to death with paste wax so they will come back out!
Never shy with opinion,
Dave
Hey , it's Uncle Mikey checking in,
I have done lots of core work on dozens of boats, Pearsons, Columbias, C&C's, Southern Cross, etc. and after many hours of the "Big Fun" I use a DeWalt industrial Dremel tool clone ( drywall cutout tool to an electrician ) , I use a bit for cutting ceramic tile , solid carbide .
If I were doing another Ariel foredeck, I would cut the whole thing out at once again ( never lost any camber ) I would stay with Wescore and save and reuse the old deck skin ( it still has the shape )
Just go around the edge of the deck with the cutter.
I use a pre-thickened 1:1 epoxy to bed the core, available from ;
www.fgci.com
Use Shurform tools to work the core down after it is glued in place. Grind the back of the old deck with a 36 grit disk o remove the ridges and gunk . Trowel on some more of the fgci epoxy using a notched (tile-setter's) tool and squish the old deck in place. Fill in the holes and gaps with the epoxy. Grind the whole deck with 36 or 40 grit and lay on some cloth set in epoxy or vinylester resin ( I prefer Vinylester ). Sand it , fill it fair it and sand again . Layout your non-skid pattern ( I like to use Interlux particles in polyurethane primer ), paint it on and finish as you please .
That is it in a nutshell , it is 10% brains and 99% grunt work ( you'll only use 1% of the alotted brain power )
Mike G
Capt. Greg.
Looks like the Tritons have done the deck core every way possible.
And so have the Ariels. The real problems have to do with the choice of materials and the experience you have with epoxy. (The general and correct concensus is Not to use poleyester because it won't 'glue' new work to old.)
I would not use fir plywood as a core material - the quality is bad, it's full of voids and laminating skins or 1/4" stuff down would be even more of a problem with voids and potlife. APA plywood is junk, even marine grade.
I would support the fordeck with thin ply and battens inside using a bottle jack or two Very Gently, just snug, befor I cut into the deck up top. No force at all - one you cut you don't want the inside to be forced up in any way. 338, perhaps because it was late in the Ariel run, or late in the day, has a very thin inner layer of mat that I feel would be too flimsey to keep integrity if the whole foredeck was removed. Especially if you worry the surface smooth with grinding and sanding - or a knee.
Personally, I would do the foredeck completely. Then the sides. because of the weight of the coach roof. I think I'd want the front of the coach roof supported by the new composit deck. The strength of this type of costruction comes primarily from the skin. The deck composit is of primary importance in the integrity of the boat. I have argued in the past here that even the two main bulkheads do not support the deck structure. I would. Note down some measurements from the inside deck to the sole as a redundant check.
In case someone hasn't made this clear: I would juice the work with plain runny epoxy with a brush befor laying down the baltec or foam which you will probably spread with a thin coat of thickened epoxy.
If you feel you have to go with interior support befor you start, you might bend up some easily bent battens into the curve with a squirt of yellow glue between the layers and let it set. I haven't done this, but I think I would. Two or three of these temporary beams held up by a single two X four and a jack would support the aft part of the foredeck while you work the top. The front half of the deck with its factory piece of ply glassed in for the mooring cleat is probably not going to move, much.
Good luck! Take photos! Let us see your torture!
Last edited by ebb; 09-07-2003 at 08:14 AM.
Hearing all people have to say: here, the Triton Forum, the wife...I think I will go after the deck a piece at a time. I was getting myself a little overwhelmed by the prospect of the poor old sweetie out there in the yard with her innards showin'. Bad enough she doesn't have any paint on her topsides anymore. Scabby and ugly is the order of the day out there and it's getting depressing to look at.
I really need to keep costs down, bein' an old retired guy. Sometimes I get kinda lonely feelin' like I the only one who can't afford stuff. It's good to know there are others, especially here, to whom "expensive" can mean hundreds instead of thousands.
Capt. Greg,
Do it with polyester, then. At least you have Don Casey in your corner. You might even do it with ply if you can soak the hell out of it as you lay it in. Punky ply, one could argue is perfect because the polyester will soak in good.
Remember (hope I'm not patronizing) epoxy sticks to polyester (after a suitable cure time) not the other way around. So you can start with the poly and fix things up with the expensive.
E h ! Go out and start cutting! I realy do believe a deckcore could be done with polyester. The core has to be compatible,
Good stuff here.
I've got a question. When you cut out the deck, can you follow the outline of the nonskid? If you have to go wider, how much wider?
The core gets thinner towards the sides. How would you handle any mushy core beyond where you cut?
The link below is just an article I had come across on foam cores. Its too technical for me, but somebody might find it interesting.
http://boatdesign.net/articles/foam-core/index.htm
C'pete,
Good questions!
It would indeed be good to know where the balsa peters out. If it is in the vacinity of the anti-slip pattern on the deck, seems that would be an excellent line to cut to. Will aid in hiding the join of old to new if the old anti-slip pattern is reused. Good idea. What happens to the balsa so close to the toe-rail? Maybe you'ld have to cut a little further in? Away from the toe?
I've been preparing the coachroof hatch for it's new Bomar. Required that the up flange be cut away and the hole made larger. You get to see at lot of sideview balsa core this way. As I mentioned earlier, the core varies in thickness around the square cutout, no doubt because ofthe compound curves in this wonderfully sculpted area.
Decided, that instead of drilling larger holes to be filled with epoxy as the anti-leak 'gasket' protection of the core for the multitude of fastenings needed for the hatch, decided I would evacuate the balsa in a 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" deep channel all round. Different thickness made it a challenge.
Used a 80 grit flexible cut off on the Makita (because it was thin, got hot and wasn't very efficient.)
A 4" 36 grit cloth-backed sanding disk on an arbor in the drill (because it is slower.)
Used the dremel tool with various burrs and bits (generally disappointing, but it got the corners emptied, and the dremel very hot.)
Used a 4" orange nylon string flapper wheel that scoured the inside surfaces of the upper and lower frp of tenacious wood. Didn't have to worry about removing the edge any. Don't believe that leaving a bit of wood in there on the inner surfaces of the frp would make any difference after filling.
Best was the sanding disk. The grit on the outer-edge did all the digging and was thin enuf to get in the norrows Being somewhat bendy gave some leeway in holding the tool. Didn't have to worry about the smooth side cutting something it shouldn't. That old frp is very hard stuff.
I think that might be a way to clear the balsa out of the cut at the toe rail when during a recore. You can reverse the disk and have that 'safe' side to depend on. Safer than a small sawblade, eg, because you can correct your working angle befor you've committed a lamentable desecration. There probably are other 'wheels' out there, like wire (they're either too flimsey or too aggressive) that maybe would work better.
For somebody planing to recore and reglue the deck back, it would be great to know eactly where the old core thins down at the rail. Make the job that much more FUN!
Some thought IMCO has to be given to what is the best method of joining the new deck to the C'hannel at the side. I admit I haven't studied the Recorer's ramificate on this important seam. Probably involve folding some wetted-out cloth or light x-mat into the groove with deliberate overlapping onto the core itself top and bottom. Divinycell foam can be carved down nearly to a knife edge with coarse sanding cloth.
[I would use baltec, by the way, because most of it is still pretty good on 338 after 40 yrs, and I will waterproof the deck as best I can with the most expensive coatings known in the civilized world. The best modern house paints are guaranteed for longer than most marriages last these days. That's good enough for me]
Last edited by ebb; 09-08-2003 at 04:24 PM.
Nothing anyone tells me is ever perceived as patronizing...I have never done any of this stuff before so each step is onto uncharted ground and I appreciate all the advice I get. I will use epoxy because it is what I am more familiar with and because it seems to be the concensus choice.
I started on the coach roof last night making small exploratory holes under where the handrails were. Wet, squishy balsa was the order of the evening. Wet and squishy, but still pretty well stuck to the lower skin. All in all, not as traumatic as I first imagined. I hardly got the shakes at all...thanks for the confidence builders!
My 2 cents' worth for the day...after spending yesterday working on the core job...
Definitely need to brace like mad. Lots of thin ply and bits of 2x4 and 1x2. Lots. Coachroof is especially critical...the best pics I've found of this is Jeff Maher's boat on the NTA site.
Jeff used a fish gaff sharpened to a chisel point to get out the balsa left in the cavity. I reworked the core in a Ranger 23 once, too...my advice, LEAVE NO BALSA ANYWHERE! If you leave it and it's OK today, if it's no good in 5 years you will be SOL for doing anything about it.
Conventional wisdom is to cut about 2-1/2" from the edge of things, and so far I would concur. To re-tab, Ebb has the idea just right, after it is all kicked off you grind a trough a couple inches wide and pretty much down to the point where it breaks thru at it's deepest (it's a dished trough, right?), then tab it with layeres of stitch mat.
Epoxy is definitely the stuff of choice...if nothing else, you want/need the working time. Use slow hardener!
Core Material is a topic of some debate, but the Triton guys who've used foam materials have for the most part been unhappy later...it doesn't work out well over time, it seems...James Baldwin has reported no problems, but he 'glassed new and heavy over the top, with much frustration and effort. Some use marine ply, some balsa, some Nida Core which is a PVC honeycomb material. I don't want wood back in there if I can help it, for obvious reasons. Ply is way heavy, and the deck weight is fairly high up...I like stability and performance. Balsa is very spendy anymore, and I don't want it anyhow. I chose to use the Nida because guys have had excellent results, and the material was cheap at less than 60.00 a sheet. You can do an entire Triton on 3 sheets! It does, however, soak up resin like nobody's business...figure 5 to 7 GALLONS, plus hardener, on the Triton job. The cost in the end is a bit higher than balsa, and the weight a bit less than ply. Jeff's advice was to wait SEVERAL DAYS before removing the clamping weights (bricks) and inner bracing, and that the decks don't go full stiff for about a week...but that when finished it is STIFF! My kinda deal.
If you haven't already, check out also Tim Lackey's excellent website at www.triton381.com to see his recore job and detailed commentary from his working over of Triton 381, GLISSANDO. Tim used ply, and a bit different approach to a couple elements of the job, but most of it is analagous to any material you might choose. Probably the best "how-to" of a recore I've seen on the web.
Forget the nonskid...you're going way farther than saving that. Your water channels will be (re)created/defined when you lay on your new nonskid. This is not a job that leaves just small scars.
On my Ranger, I used these granules that System 3 sold in a quart can...about 6 cans' worth. Punched holes in the lid to make a shaker, masked my outlines, rolled out a thin coat of resin, and shook on until you couldn't see deck. Vacuumed off the next day, sidfted/filtered the excess for reuse, went again at next area, etc. Once it was painted it looked like some kind of a factory job...but it was a lot of work. Triton 397 gets an easier treatment that I learned from my buddy...mix up a bunch of balloons into the resin, trowel it on with a spreader as evenly as you can, and as it starts to go off pull up a texture with a wall texture paint roller. Makes for a very aggressive nonskid that looks pretty good under paint. Falling on it might really suck, but it is not uncomfortable to sit on. Looks more fishboat than yacht, but I think of old Pearsons as a sort of industrial chic anyway...sort of a cross between traditional wood boat and early-50's Grumman aircraft industrial. Just my aesthetic. Also easy and cheap!
Last thought---tools. Most important tool I am using is a DA sander with a 6 inch pad. Jobs like this are what air tools are made for...don't kid yourself. I've got a couple real nice 5-inch electric random orbit sanders and they don't begin to do what a proper DA does. Spend the $$$ and get a real, professional tool...China's finest don't make it for this one. You need LOTS of air to run one of these...over 10 CFM. Without air tools, I'd have no hope of ever finishing this job in my lifetime<G>! You can knock off ALL of the old nonskid that you need to in about an hour with 60 grit, and it will be nicely done! When most of it is gone, just evenly feather the edges down into the old white areas. Slightly increased crown on deck, and smooth. Remember not to go too nuts, as you'll have plenty of sanding/grinding and fairing to do after the skins are back down and it's a lot easier to have the meat left on the 'glass and fair by cutting down on it as much as possible to minimize filling, than to fill like mad forever and ever in order to have something to cut down.
It feels real good when you get that first skin off!
Dave
Capt. Greg,
Seems like you have a real job just getting all the info (or 'opinions' as someone once said) into some kind of plan.
When you open up the coachroof let us know where the balsa starts thining, ok? Over the windows, and the hatch logs for that matter. If you can, post photos! It all looks professional if you vacuum first!
Shoot first, pay the consequences later. There is always a way out of any problem, you may not have forseen it, but that makes it interesting!
If you don't feel like you have the bucks to cop out to technologic hype(viz e poxy) then by all means put another method together. There NEEDS to be a cheaper fix than this corporate ripoff that epoxy is.
And look at it another way: you don't have to make your upgrade last 40 years, so use pinewood strips if you want, and roofing tar. And polyester is just fine for this application because its almost all new work - if you have to cover it with a layer of fiberglass, so what? You grind and sand til it looks good - then you sand and paint until it's sm o o o th as a baby's bottom. The spirit of your boat will show you the way, it don't lie. Really.
If you are anywhere near my age you already know it doesn't matter. Nothing matters.
Just being with this beautyful boat means you won't make any mistakes. Just little ones. And you will be forgiven for anything you ever did when you put your baby back in the water!!!
Gee, sounds like religeon. Better git out there befor they pass the plate.
[Greg, I must add here that I have NOT used polyester for the recore. That IS merely opinion. Second, the epoxy I use is very expensive but IMCO a much safer material than polyester with its styrene content and the acetone you'ld probably use in conjunction: BAD mothers. 100% solids epoxy is low odor, and extremely easy to use with normal precautions - it makes you an expert. Alcohol for clean up, or white vinegar. The only unknown with epoxy is its set up time, you have to sweat that part, but you know that if you've got the proportions correct and it sets up, you can grind away any mistake and just do it over. The next epoxy will bond just fine.]
Last edited by ebb; 09-09-2003 at 08:07 AM.
Greg
Boy, I'm gettin all excited just thinking about the recore job ahead of you. 'Don't know how far Appleton is from here but I'm ready to pack a lunch and head out! Form the limited probing I've done and the few(but large)holes 113 has in her decks it seems that the bulk of the coring goes up to within an inch or 1 1/4" from the botton of the toe rail. That's where I'd cut. Seems no matter where you start everybody agrees that the digging and scraping doesn't come easy. Dave is right, brace her up on the inside and I'd use construction site refuse because you won't really need anything longer than 3' and who cares if the 2 by 4 is twisted,warped or straight. It'll really stink because I know how nice it is to just go below to sit and take it all inAnd yes, Tim's site gives a real good 'how to' or 'how I did' lesson in recoring. I've bought several books and in essence it all comes back to what Tim has on his site for free(but now I know).
Here's a hole in 113's side deck about even with the middle of the aft main cabin port. The white sealant is now gone and the core was pretty much directly behind it in this photo. Hope this helps. Tony G
What a strange hole!
Must have been for a flower pot.
Good stuff Dave and Tony,
Looking at that hole at the toe rail.....We're not seeing any old balsa core right? So let's say you got solid 1 1/2" plus in from the toe rail. I'ld want to make the cut thru the top then further in than where the original factory molded antislip stops. If you can't make the joint by poking glass into a groove or excavated channel in the composit then your locking seam has to be the dished out stripe on the top spanning old and new that you fill with glass cloth and/or mat. Of course this is done after the new deck is on and hard. Minimum width 4" if done with epoxy. If the inside has been prepped, I would add at least one 4" strip of heavy X-matt inside under the join. IMCO.
I know that if I ended up with a checkerboard of original deck pasted back onto the new core, even if I used epoxy thruout, I would add a layer or two of one piece glass from toerail to toerail over the whole deck. Light stuff, just to make sure that I had skin integrity in the reconstructed composit.
[There is another concern here (Mike and I posted on this, way in the past) and there is so much on this subject that this may be very redundant:
You read experts who caution not to glass over gell coat. I've done a lot of epoxy filling below the waterline that has been faired on to (well-grinded) gelcoat. It was pointed out that any mold-release or wax was now gone after 40 years. Not having done it, it must be nearly impossible to grind all the gellcoat and molded tred off the deck. It is the gellcoat on the boat that stress cracks and crumbles in some instances. So the question is: how much do you have to remove to ensure that the new work is not going to peel in the future? I'm inclined to believe that if you grind down to the translucent green and the white stuff left seems to be bonded to the laminate that it is ok to consider this a bondable surface.
What is the consensus on this?]
Last edited by ebb; 09-10-2003 at 07:32 AM.
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