Has anyone had the experience of replacing the balsa core
with foam from both sides of the cabin forward to the very tip of
the bow. I m looking for information on what it costs on average
from a boatyard and doing it on one's own.
Sprite
Has anyone had the experience of replacing the balsa core
with foam from both sides of the cabin forward to the very tip of
the bow. I m looking for information on what it costs on average
from a boatyard and doing it on one's own.
Sprite
Click on the "search" button at the top of the page and enter "delamination." There have been a number of posts, but I'm not sure if they have discussed cost.
It appears to me that yard costs vary by geographic area, so you might want to contact a couple of local yards for estimates. The do-it-yourself costs are (obviously) the materials needed for the job. Your local chandlery may be able to give you a good estimate of the materials needed and their cost.
Ahhh, the old tuna salad on toast.
I would expect the cost of a professional repair at a boatyard to exceed the value of the boat. I would get estimates, just so the misery of tackling this project is tempered by the knowledge of how much money you've saved.
In addition to the multiple threads on this site, there is gobs of material on the internet. The basic procedure is all the same.
One step by step description can be found on Tim's website
http://www.triton381.com/recore.html
I did it to #45, and if I did it for someone I'd say about $2500 to $3500 (depending on degree of finish) is what I would charge .
I found one article I had saved on a core repair done by a boatyard on a Pearson Flyer.
Although the job didn't seem to involve that much square footage, the cost was $8000.
Click on the photos for them to show up.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dellin...%20Repairs.htm
In this job, the deck core was repaired from underneath. I think it would be exceedingly difficult and uncomfortable to do it that way in the forepeak area.
Commander Pete,
Just looked at the link. The boatyard's price would probably be in
that vicinity. The work would be on top though. I have water stains on my portside on the inside and the core is completely gone. There is air and no balsa left. I talked with the boatyard
and they said they would have to professionally cut it to make
sure the pieces fell back into place but they said that I could save
money by removing the remains of the balsa myself. I am not
sure how much of the interior will have to be pulled out due to
lack of maintenance and water stains. I figure that it would probably be safer to eliminate the balsa on the starboard side as well. It has been hell anyway, I have removed deck hardware from the front and back most was original the previous owner used galvanized screws. When I was working near front taking off an anchor chock on the starboard side water came down on me, while using bolt cutters. The previous owner put the pipe for the anchor chain on the portside. To make matters worse he put the holes in the deck and did not seal the edges with epoxy or sealing the deck fittings with silicone or any decent bedding compound. So I m kinda thinking of taking the plunge for safety sake. As ugly as that sounds. Do you think that when I get through with this double mastectomy the boat will structurally be okay or better.
John
Rotten balsa core is not so much a safety/structural issue. There's plenty of boats sailing around with mushy decks. Damage to the plywood inside where the chainplates attach would be a greater concern.
But, you can only tackle one job at a time. Although I haven't done a recore of this scale, I think that:
1) You have to rig up some type of shelter first.
2) Don't pussyfoot around with half-measures, Dremel tools, whimpy sanders, 80 grit, etc. The job will just take longer. Go after it with a vengence--circular saw, angle grinder, flat nail bar for the core removal, and similar heavy equiptment.
3) Cutting off the skin doesn't require professional assistance. Just set the depth of the circular saw so that you don't pierce the bottom skin.
4) You'll be painting on a new nonskid surface at the end. You'll also need to paint the surrounding white areas since they will get smeared with epoxy.
You will do a better job than the boatyard. You can't hurt the boat. Any mistakes can be either repaired with epoxy or ground down. In the end, the boat will be as good as new.
Last edited by commanderpete; 09-03-2003 at 07:27 AM.
Commander Pete
I want to thank you for the moral support. The boat is in
inside storage due to it leaking plus I have taken out the windows. I also have water and electricity. I have taken out the chainplates and almost all the deck fittings. They look original. I just recently had the back chainplate made, doubling the thickness and adding two bolts.The side that definitely has to be replaced is leaking through the chainplates and had corroded the
bolts and ate away at a bronze bolt connected to a grounding wire for the mast on the portside the wire was not effected. Should the new chainplates be doubled in thickness as well.
Getting back to the deck, what should be the pattern for
cutting it in sections. When you cut it way what should be the
depth of the circular saw, is there any preparation that you
have to do after removing the balsa and what kinds of problems
should you be aware of on the lower skin where it has been
effected by water. The depth of foam what should I be looking
for in terms of thickness does it vary and what types of foam
vincell was recommended to me. I have not worked with epoxy
before what should be the mixture John
Oh Boy. I haven't had to do a recore on my Commander. I've just helped out on a different model boat. So I'm not the right guy to give detailed advice (Like that ever stopped me before).
Mike had posted some explanation and photos around here sometime back.
I'll think about it some and get back to you.
In the meantime, here's Bill Sandifer's article on recoring his Ariel. He did it while the boat was in the water. Unbelievable.
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm
Okay...here's my first ever post. I am in the throes of resurrecting #105 and the next job is going to be the recore of the ENTIRE deck. Earlier repairs have either failed or are failing and will probably make the whole project harder, but with the encouragement I have gotten by reading this forum and the likes of Tim Lackey's site, I think the best way to go about it is to just dig in and do the best I can. I have removed all the deck hardware along with a good bit of paint...enough to convince me that the upper layer of the deck is probably not worth the effort to save. I would end up grinding off all of the non-skid anyway, so I intend to put down some core material (Nidacore or similar) and then glass over the whole shooting match, re-doing the non-skid when I finish. A lot of work, I know, but worth it in peace of mind and pride when it's all over and floating. I am really tired of sailing in my backyard.
BTW when I tried to go after the soft spots in the cabin roof with the circular saw the other day, I got the shakes so bad I couldn't hold the saw...had to go inside and try to regain my composure. I think I can go on now.
First off, let's hope Mike chimes in and you can ask him. specific questions.
I've done just a smidgeon on 338 digging bigger hatches in and replacing a chunk in way of the mast step on the roof. The obvious way is to attack thru the top. There have been others who have replaced their core from Inside.
My observation is that the inside layer of fiberglass is very thin, and if I was replacing the whole deck I would do it in small sections so as not to loose the camber in the deck. I might consider making templates at one foot stations back from the bow of the deck as it now exists
The top is at least 1/8" thick. varying to thicker where it turns a corner.
I also tore out a piece that was in good condition. It was a bear, literally delaminating the glass mat from the piece of deck where the old polyester had soaked into the endgrain of the balsa. Was really impressed. Because the plastic soaked into the balsa it makes scraping the balsa off the thin inner layer something you have to do really careful.
Also, on the cabin anyway, the balsa varies in thickness, like they had to do some sanding to get it to take the curves. The decks I guess are more predictable....
There isn't anything you can do to your boat that you can't fix with a good grade of epoxy. So layout some lines in the form of a grid, say, and set the carbide saw blade 1/4" on your 5 1/2" skilsaw and cut out a square. In an easy place. See if it prys up easy with your blue prybar.
Voila, you have begun. If you can't stand it, glue it back and sell the boat. No way. So check with Mike and Tim on their procedure. Find out where they started on the deck, how much they deconstructed at a time. and so forth. For instance, if I had to do it I might ask Mike if removing a one foot band of foredeck across from port to starboard and after cleaning it out reolacing it with baltec or Divinycell, whatever, then epoxying the deck back on is a good way to start. You'ld be likely to keep the camber that way. Then repeat with another section next to the new repair.
When you are into it you'll invent your own method and tell us about it!!!
(Be prepared, tho, if there is any good wood in there you'll have a hell of a time prying the deck off.)
Last edited by ebb; 09-05-2003 at 11:37 PM.
Go to the NTA site (www.tritonclass.org) and look at the "project gallery" pictures of Jeff Maher's Triton #30 recore project...take really special note of what he did with shoring up inside before cutting anything to maintain the curvature. Important detail! Jeff did same on all of the areas he worked.
I'm just in the process of cutting the skins off of Triton 397, and have found the skilsaw is not the best tool for the job. Maher used a cutoff disc in an angle grinder, I'm using a cutoff disc in a die grinder in similar fashion.
The voids under the edges get packed in with epoxy thickened with microfibers--not balloons--and before placing the new core it is wetted out and then a layer of the microfiber-thickened epoxy is troweled into the cavity as if one were doing stucco or laying tile. Important to have a few reilef holes so the excess material has somewhere to squeeze out.
James Baldwin did the 'lay neww glass' method on his Triton, ATOM, and sounds like he would never do it that way again...it does sound like an awful lot of work. By reusing the origianl skins you will save a great deal of time and expense, plus have a better guide for the finished deck contour. The skins go back down with the same treatment I described for the core and with a few relief holes. Again, taking a llok at the pics of Jeff's Triton, we can see the nicest way of getting even clamping pressure. if there are edges or corners sticking up. a few judiciously placed sheeetrock screws will do the trick. Make very sure they are square-drives and very sure you have waxed them to death with paste wax so they will come back out!
Never shy with opinion,
Dave
Hey , it's Uncle Mikey checking in,
I have done lots of core work on dozens of boats, Pearsons, Columbias, C&C's, Southern Cross, etc. and after many hours of the "Big Fun" I use a DeWalt industrial Dremel tool clone ( drywall cutout tool to an electrician ) , I use a bit for cutting ceramic tile , solid carbide .
If I were doing another Ariel foredeck, I would cut the whole thing out at once again ( never lost any camber ) I would stay with Wescore and save and reuse the old deck skin ( it still has the shape )
Just go around the edge of the deck with the cutter.
I use a pre-thickened 1:1 epoxy to bed the core, available from ;
www.fgci.com
Use Shurform tools to work the core down after it is glued in place. Grind the back of the old deck with a 36 grit disk o remove the ridges and gunk . Trowel on some more of the fgci epoxy using a notched (tile-setter's) tool and squish the old deck in place. Fill in the holes and gaps with the epoxy. Grind the whole deck with 36 or 40 grit and lay on some cloth set in epoxy or vinylester resin ( I prefer Vinylester ). Sand it , fill it fair it and sand again . Layout your non-skid pattern ( I like to use Interlux particles in polyurethane primer ), paint it on and finish as you please .
That is it in a nutshell , it is 10% brains and 99% grunt work ( you'll only use 1% of the alotted brain power )
Mike G
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