Location for holding tank for new head

[SailorLiz]

Has anyone installed a holding tank on a Commander? We plan on doing a lot of sailing in the North Channel of Lake Huron this season and checking on Canada's web site, it says it is illegal (even for foreign vessels) to have a porta-potti. Here is a quote from one of their officals in an email to me..

Regarding portable toilets, they are illegal in Ontario waters. This means
that the toilet must be visibly disconnected while in these waters.
For more information on foreign vessels in Canada, please refer to
Requirements for Foreign Recreational Boaters In Canadian Waters on our
web-site: http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/obs-bsn/facts/foreign_e.htm#6

[ebb]

looks to me (but I don't know, I'm just pumping this out) -

that the letter of the law says that if you have a pumpout hose that is connected to a deck pumpout fitting (one that says 'WASTE') and the other end is connected to your portapotti, it is no longer a portable toilet. Is that right?

So, Sealand makes a SaniPottie "Portable/Permanent" head. 338 has a Thetaford which may be similar, haven't used it yet. So what if you have one of these 2 part heads rigged as if permanent complete with a vent? I mean I would carry it ashore if I had to, yes I would, OR pump it out - which ever was more convenient. Consider it an environmental option.

So thinking about this: I know for a fact even if the coast guard has forgotten that healthy humans make healthy pee. I have read that it is antiseptic, and you'll find it mentioned in survival manuals as a wash for wounds. That's good enuf for me and canada. I'll have a bucket for the liquid ($22, WM) and only put solids in the bottom tank of the p,p, - with a squirt of the blue stuff.

Are there other solutions??? I think this is an important subject for discussion!!!

[SailorLiz]

That is a good idea. In fact I know of another sailor who has the same kind of porta-potti on his Pearson 30. He sailed last season in the North Channel with it, but he did not have it hooked up to any hose for pump-out. His boat was never inspected by any custom's officers. I did a little research on their web page and this is the Canadian's regulation for a holding tank on a vessel.

Holding Tank
6. Where a pleasure craft is fitted with a holding tank, the tank shall
(a) be an integral part of the hull structure of the pleasure craft or be securely attached to the hull;
(b) be constructed of structurally sound material that prevents the tank contents from leaking;
(c) be resistant to corrosion by sewage;
(d) have an adequate capacity for the craft's normal complement;
(e) be provided with a discharge connection and piping system for the removal of the tank contents by a pumping facility;
(f) be designed so that the level of sewage in the tank may be determined without the tank being opened and without contacting or removing any of the tank contents, or be equipped with a device that allows that determination to be made; and
(g) be equipped with ventilation device that
(i) has its vent outlet located on the outside of the pleasure craft and in a safe location,
(ii) prevents the build-up within the tank of
pressure that could cause damage to the tank,
(iii) is constructed of material that cannot be
corroded by sewage, and
(iv) has a flame screen of non-corrosive material fitted to the vent outlet.

[ebb]

whoa! a flame screen TOO?

Let's hope they don't find the Henderson manual waste pump with the long hoses attached

[ebb]

seems like some committee wrote a law specifically describing the white translucent polypropylene waste tank. Suppose some posh yacht has an Incinolet (incinerator) ? Or how about the AirHead. Certainly and arguably environmentally friendly. Go to jail for that?

Someone here on the West Coast can better than I talk about the BCDC who legislated many anchor-outs out of existence by labeling them as 'illegal land fill.' Yes, they were dumping their nasties overboard. But they never fined a single town sewer district who let their million gallon systems overflow into the Bay. Never heard of a single Navy ship get cited. Don't hear too much about the bay conservation district anymore because they cut their money so I guess it became too expensive to persecute.

Then, what? You have to install a waste tank and a godawful manual head. Isn't there an 'under 30' exception rule?' A 13' daysailer isn't going to plumb a wilcoxcrittenden in the cockpit is it? There must be some sanity. Why would the government force people to break the law? As if every yachty dumped all at once that a measurement of the polution it caused could scientifically prove any impact on the environment.

It'll come down to inspecting your log for pump station visits and checking your waste station receipts against the number of crew on some average volume per person per day.

"Yes sir. You see, sir, I was seasick the whole time. Yes sir, couldn't keep my granola down. Sir, you say it's illegal to vomit overboard.....?"

[SailorLiz]

I know it is riduculous, but they have their regs, just like we have some crazy regs here in the US. I think that if our boats meet the USCG standards, as a "visiting" foreign vessel, we should be able to use our porta-potties or other enviroment friendly toilets. I just want to "visit" their waters. Unfortunately, I might not be doing that, until we get our other boat fitted out and in the water. It already has a head and holding tank.
I was looking in the catalogs last night and there is such a thing as a "flexible" holding tank. Holds something like 24.5 gals. When full it is only 12"high. The dimensions sounds like it could fit in the V-berth area, then run the venting pipes out the chain/rode area? Anyone familiar with this? How much of a holding tank for water does anyone think is needed for a manual head? Could also get the "soft" water tanks and install on port or starboard in the v-berth area.

[Tony G]

SailorLiz
Glad to see you're still with us. Are you considering a flexible holding tank just to become compliant for Canadian waters or are you actually intending to use it? Although flexible tanks are used for water I believe most would shy away from using them for holding tanks. Failure from repetitive motion and stress from stiff sanitation hoses are the major concerns. Not to mention that freezing and thawing tend to shorten the life of most plastics out there. It seems that all the arguments I've heard are stating reasons why you shouldn't use one. The only argument for their use ( and it's not really even an argument ) it that they are less expensive alot of the time and they conform to the space they are tucked into. Surely you've heard the same arguments against use.
In reply to your question how much, I remember reading 6 gal per crew member per week. I've never 'monitored' my own effluent for a week (yet, that is) but that sounds like alot.
Geez, I didn't want to bombard you with all of this negative 'crap' but I'd hate to see you do someting you'd regret later, like when you have to remove a used flexible holding tank.
But on the other hand, if this is just a means to an end for a summer cruise to get off the ground.....

[SailorLiz]

Hi Toni,
Yes, I'm still here. Have been lurking for most of the winter. I will probably still be here, even when we do sail our "other" boat eventually. We do love the Commander. It has been a fun boat to sail and we do a lot of "weekending" with it. Back to the American Crap in Canada!

Yes, we want to conform, as it would be my luck that our boat would be the oneinspected by the Canadian customs. Then there would be seizure, fines, etc. I would like to try and avoid that. If we do upgrade to a head and holding tank, then yes, we would use it, as in The N. Channel, we would be living on the hook most of the time.

I also seen a small plastic holding tank. I think it was 6 gals. That was also about the price of the flexible holding tank. We don't use the old water tank in the commander. It is made of some sort of metal and really should be taken out of the V-berth area. So we are now talking about installing those bladders for fresh water their and install a holding tank, under the cockpit? There is a lot of unused room there. Would that be feasible with the plumbing?

[Bill]

>>>and install a holding tank, under the cockpit? There is a lot of unused room there. <<< Try to avoid putting anything in that section of the boat. As you have probably read in other posts, extra weight at the stern impacts the boat's balance, causes additional water intrusion when motoring and etc. A better location might be under the quarter berths.

A thought. Have you spoken directly to the Canadian authorities about the requirements? Maybe there are acceptable alternatives for visitors.

[SailorLiz]

I was afraid that might be the answer. Hmmm...I guess we will have to uncover the boat this weekend and take a good look in the cabin area and do some measuring and figuring. We really don't want to spend a lot of time or money on this project. The other problem we have when cruising is that we are well prepared, so if we install a holding tank, we will lose some of our storage area. I was hoping to utilize that area under the cockpit. It seems to be "wasted" space. On the Airels, wasn't that space used to install the Inboard engines?
Brendan, if your reading this I e-mailed you about your set-up that you have for sale. I'm interested.

As far as talking to officials, the person who emailed me the link and information was Monica Kett
Information Officer/Agente d'information
Office of Boating Safety/Bureau de la securité nautique
Fisheries and Oceans Canada/Pêches et Océans Canada
kettm@DFO-MPO.GC.CA

I think this agency is the equivalent to our US Coast Guard?

[Bill]

>>>On the Airels, wasn't that space used to install the Inboard engines? <<< Just about under the sink, actually.

[Brendan Watson]

I didn't mean that the tank in the picture was a Todd 5-galllon.
I was just relaying experience I have had with one. The tank in
the drawing looks alot bigger than the 5. As for the stainless tank
I aquired, it came out of a,you guessed it, Commander that was
being parted up at my boatyard. I got the rig, rudder shafts,
some sails, fore-hatch and lots of other Commander goodies.
You could talk me out of this tank cheap. I've got abig re-core
project going on and I'm thinking a nice clean, flexible tank in the
bow might be just the ticket.
Cheers, B.
Commander#215

[Bill]

'Brendan,

Did you happen to get the hull number of the Commander being "parted up?"

[Mike Goodwin]

Hull # should be on the Mainsail if you got that too .

[Sprite]

I took the liberty of checking the board today and noticed quite a
few posts so I figured, I'd throw this one in. Sanipotties are on
Searay boats and can be connected to a tank they can goe either
way. John