Doesn't look like you Great Lakes boys will be doing much sailing for awhile.
Maybe you could use the lead forward of the bow to break up the ice.
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...3154559011.jpg
Doesn't look like you Great Lakes boys will be doing much sailing for awhile.
Maybe you could use the lead forward of the bow to break up the ice.
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...3154559011.jpg
That is really spectacular. I had heard that this was the first year in a decade when that much of the lakes froze over.
So I guess I will have to plan for a few more weeks of sitting on my old sofa, dressed in my dago tee ( really had planned on washing it as soon as the weather wamed up), waching the tube and drinking beer. Perhaps this will give me some extra time to clean up the empty beer cans that have accumulated this past winter. on the floor.
On the other hand, this weekend is supposed to be in the sixties, the tarps will be coming off, and there will be a bit of revelry in the boatyard. Maybe I'll do that instead.
Last edited by Theis; 03-13-2003 at 04:49 AM.
Theis, I doubt that you would be the guy at the back of the pack. I suspect you have to many years on the water and a few tricks up you sleeve that could teach us all a little something.
To speak to a couple of points that you make, I agree water line would make a difference but if you get a chance to watch Ariels sail at speed you would see the water line come into play. As the boats increase in speed they displace more and more water. The result is that they begin to "squat" in the water. If and when you get them up to hull speed the stern settles in and the water line becomes longer than the 18'. In my opinion in conditions less than these all you are doing is adding wetted surface which creates more drag.
As far as my mast goes I can tell you that I have had discussions with more people that I care to admit to about how I set up Pathfinder. I know what the book says about mast rake, but I do the opposite. On Pathfinder we keep her mast titled aft. I keep the uppers and stays as tight as allowed by spec and in a moderate to strong breeze the rig is adjusted aft. I do spend a lot of attention to the draft of the head sail and make sure we keep it in the 25% range. This helps balance the helm. I also pay attention the main leech and work on keeping it flat. My basic theory is that I try to look at the wind in a liquid state and the weather helm is created by the wind building up and not being able to escape. (hope that makes sense) As I have said before in other threads I am also a strong believer in the boats sailing on their lines. As such we do sail with more twist in the main than the book would tell you to. Again allowing the wind to spill out.
I hope this does not offend the traditionalist it is just the way we do it. I will also tell you that the only time that I have complained about weather helm on the race course is when I left the rig to far forward and by one design rules was not able to adjust it back to where we wanted it. Fire away...ed
Each of our boats have different amounts of ballast, and each of us have different amounts and placement of stuff in the boats from outboards to anchor chain -- significant variables. So there's probably not a one-size-fits-all answer to reballasting.
In my case, there's no mystery about the value of 100-150 pounds of weight placed in the general area of the maststep. At least in my boat's case, when I walk to the dock after it's rained, there is water puddled in the aft end of the cockpit -- even with the water tank full. My boat also sits a little high in the water (based on the drawn water line). Put about 125 pounds (my wife) at the vee berth bulkhead, and the boat levels, the water drains. With two in the cockpit and one person at the bulkhead, the boat squats again, but it's tolerable.
I've done the same experiments under sail...moving the crew around. There is not a dramatic increase in sail handling when I add weight forward, but I believe -- in my case -- that the boat "feels and sounds" better. Still, I won't know for sure until I live with the weight forward for awhile.
Dave's got a point.
Sometimes a bit of weight up forward can be good.
In 6 years of listening to my Commander I feel that she could
use a little weight in the bow. This is the result of loading up the
lazzarette with a 75lb motor, 2- 6 gallon tanks and a 20 gallon
water tank under the cockpit sole, as far forward as it will go.
This, maybe 350lb burden, aft of the center of effort is the result
of how I use the boat, daysailing, weekending, and a couple of 4-6 day
trips each summer. I think the wide range of demands that cruising
places on the boat stretches the parameters of the design to the limits
of its lines. I think that used for its intended purpose,daysailing/racing,
with a 4hp motor and 3 gallon tank without water I would not be feeling
that the boat squats when broad reaching and running. It's noticable
and quantifiable on my boat that while under sail and power that the GPS
will record higher speeds and feel more powerfully driven when I stand on
the bow.Pumping ones weight to drive the boat through chop can also increase
speed incrementally. I'm talking tenths of a knot.
I'm not going to give up my motor and will probably go to a heavier one
(4-stroke) in the near future. Maybe with the 4-stroke I could give up the
second, dedicated, 6-gallon tank without affecting my range that much. If this was possible
there would be almost 50 lbs less in the stern, minus, of course the additional
weight of the four stroke.
The other thing I intend to do this spring is to install a water tank in the bow and
take out the one I have aft. I found a Commander that was headed into a dumpster
that had a stainless tank that fits perfectly. It looks like it might hold 12-15 gallons.
With this weight forward I think the Commander is gonna fly, sailing on her lines with
another hundred pounds or so shifted forward.
I think loose ballast is an obvious no-no
Water in the lazarette is a sign of sailing fast (under load).
I have heard that most Alberg's can carry a load in the bow and like it, (chain, water, etc.
Cheers, B.
Commander# 215
This is an update on adding more weight in the bow pulpit.
I have placed two 70# bags of tube sand in the bow pulpit (total 140#). Tube sand can be purchased at your local hardware store and is used to weight the back end of your car - and as sand in you get stuck in ice and snow. It is well sealed and does not leak sand.
Before I get to the specifics, let me comment about how Solsken is loaded. Solsken has a 60# outboard, a full tank of water (20 gals or 160#). Figure the people loading is 200#-300#. The holding tank, under the cockpit, was largely empty. There is a 50# liferaft under the cabin steps. The battery is just aft of the aft cabin bulkhead.
When at dock, with no one on board, the forward part of the boot top is barely under water, and the stern end is a bit out of the water.
I am convinced the Ariel does go significantly faster with those weights - perhaps a half to one mile an hour faster. That is the good news.
The bad news is that the foredeck appears wetter and lower to the water. When the boat is on its side beating, 20 - 30 degrees, the freeboard appears noticeably less, but the boat seems to drive through waves much better than before. The big negative, is that the motor cavitates in seas, which it never did before. Yesterday I was pushing 6.8 mph nosing into the wind driving into three foot seas (short crest).
The next step is to reduce the weight to one bag (70#) and see if that is a happy medium.
Last edited by Theis; 06-16-2003 at 06:20 AM.
I know there's a lot of debate on this issue, but I side with Theis. After a lot of experimentation, I've added about 175 pounds of lead in the forward end of the bilge under the maststep of my OB Ariel. Seems like a lot of weight, but it took that much to make much of a difference. The boat doesn't hobby horse -- on the contrary, the motion is more comfortable. If anything the boat is slightly faster and seems more closewinded. Sits nicely on her lines at the slip. I'm very pleased.
after i removed the a-bomb and all the miscellaneous related junk from commander 280, the boat sat up on her lines all the way around, and especially at the stern...leading to a nose-down attitude at rest. looked funny, but when you sail hard on it the boat sits level. don't even have to get hard on it. much faster on all points. i have my own theories as to why and what the effect of the change is to the hull's function as a lifting body.
unless you are inhibited by a class rule for racing, try just taking out the extra "engine" ballast pigs and see how she sails!
dave
Somehow I think we've had this discussion before...
Ahh...here it is; page 52 in the Manual on removing the factory-installed water tank, "It may also be a good idea to keep at least 20 pounds of gear...to compensate for the missing tank and maintain proper balance." The specs for the Ariel indicated a 21-gallon water tank; at 8 lbs/gallon that would be 168lbs.
Of course, this is assuming that the water tank has been removed, which doesn't seem to be the case w/Solsken (Theis, correct me if I'm wrong).
What about you, Dave? Your 175 lbs seems to be right-on, but is that with or without a full water tank?
Brent
No, the water tank is still in, and generally full (see previous discussion about loading it with gin).
The pigs I keep more or less amidship, in the bilge to float the boat lower, which makes it significantly more rigid. Of course, I am no 100 lb wonder, although I should be if I could only cumulatively total all the weight I have lost, and ignore the intervening events.
Also, keep in mind that Lake Michigan cruising may be different than for day sailing or racing. I need the more stable boat. If I can get stability and speed, wow - the perfect combination. The added weight does increase the waterline.
Brent,
I've added the weight in addition to a full tank.
Like Theis, I sail in some potentially lumpy or heavy conditions -- Puget Sound, the San Juans, the Canadian Gulf Islands; and I don't race. My benchmark for the tinkering I did with weight distribution was how the boat rode ferry wakes (artificial swells) and power boat chop near the marina. The boat is more seakindly and it sails better.
But I would warn anyone against putting that kind of weight in their boat without a lot of experimentation. My Ariel may be an aberation.
Here's the latest update:
I removed one of the 70# bags of sand, leaving 70# in the peak. It seems that the proper weight is between 50# and 100#, depending on the load being carried in the cockpit.
With just the 70#, sailing alone, I hit 7.1 mph on a beat, in 10-15 mph winds, with just a full main and a 100% jib. The seas were perhaps 1 foot. The heel was about 15-20 degrees. Under motor power, I get about an extra .3 mph.
The problem with two bags (140#) is that I felt the bow was too low, and digging too much. In higher seas, or with a spinnaker, I wouldn't feel comfortable. And then when the engine cavitated, that settled it that 140# is too much. But 70# is great, and is what I will keep in the forepeak.
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