Epoxy VS. Polyester

[ebb]

mornin' Craig,
Just scrolled down to yer recent post,
ah shure am a curmudgeony s.o.b!

MAKES POLYESTER A PRETTY LETHAL COCKTAIL doesn't it?
Yet I know I could get into somebody's face about it and they'd still edit out what they don't want to hear! Including them who publish advice. I don't mean, 'wear gloves and a mask.'

It's a little late now to find out, but those nameless Azorian farmers who pasted our fleet together, I wonder how their health was after their return home? I'm sure some safety protocols were enforced at the factory in the 60s, couldn't have been very sophisticated. Just guessing.

Once I practically bathed in polyester. Stoned myself on the saccharin fumes. I was born stupid. And I may not have recovered yet, and, as you point out, may never will.

Your health is only as good as you can afford.
You can afford good epoxy.

* If in this case the 'sword' is polyester, then the dance is a positive airflow mask, tyvec suits, nitril gloves and a good plan of action based on practice. On the estate here the guys working with face shields or dust masks on a task will remove them as soon as the heat leaves - because it ain't macho to wear them, I presume.

[CupOTea]

Once one decides which barrier and anti-fouling paint to go with below the waterline how does one apply it around the "pads", if that's what they're called, that are holding the boat upright in the yard? The guy at Interlux said "just move 'em" - but then what? - put the pad elsewhere on wet barrier or paint??

[ebb]

A. Paint the blanks out when yer in the slings. And the bottom of the keel too.
B. Get the harbor master to reposition the jacks, wax paper the pads.

[Mike Goodwin]

You paint around the pads , let it dry ( barrier coat or antifouling ) the get the yard folks to move the stands for you , or at least ask them if you can do it . Doing it on your own can void their insurance and get you tossed out of the yard .
I've seen idiots take out all the stands under one side of the boat to paint there , while wife and kids were roaming around topsides . Travellift was promptly dispached to get them out of the yard ( half painted ) !!

[ebb]

Hullo Brendan Watson??? Still there?

To answer your original question,
there are two non-technical (in the old sense) fiberglass books published in the '60's that parallel the age of our A/Cs. One is Allan Viatses' FIBERGLASS REPAIR MANUEL. He also virtually invented the method for sheathing wood with polyester. You really don't need a more technical manual than this in the use of fiberglass.

And certainly the friendliest of all is the wonderful classic: FIBERGLASS BOATS, by Hugo du Plessis. You shouldn't have any trouble finding these. Later editions are updated.

With these two manuals you'll have a lot of know how. My early editions of these books mention dermatitis as a problem for some. And if you develop the problem 'stick to wooden boats'! So there is a golden light of innocence pervading these adventurous how to do it source books. Maybe not right in light of what we now know about these chemicals - but a relief! Can see how I just dove right in.

These really are the polyester classics. Specific epoxy manuals and tip sheets are found at West System, System Three, etc. But the principles are basically the same.

Smith & Co.'s ALL WOOD GLUE, so far as I know THE best epoxy wood adhesive on the market, has a label on the can 1/3 of which in small print spells out hazards, a 'non warranty' in lawyereze, and ends with: 'This product is inherently unsafe - It cannot be made safe.' There should be a skull and bones on all this stuff. But this is a dangerous world and testosterone (AND the profit motive) rules.

[c_amos]

As I have worked my way forward, I have faired where necessary and when that was not required I have simply filled the crazing with pure epoxy.

One area that was required no real fairing was the cabintop.

Not too pretty to look, (I actually raced it like this)

[c_amos]

The hatch was removed again, and another coat of epoxy smothed over the surface. Primer, and a couple coats of topcoat later.....

[ebb]

Polyester vs epoxy is covered here pretty well. Leave polyester behind for the moment.
Epoxy coatings are a huge segment of the industry, with the use of epoxy for DIY composite
construction a distant second or third.
Why one epoxy is somehow better than another's hasn't been explored. Repair & remodeling
interest is aimed mostly at laminating, predominantly glass, and various other core materials
of wood and sheet plastic with 2-part resin... to create strong continuous molded composites
of every imaginable form including the boat itself. But includes also various powders, milled
and chopped strand added to resin for powerful structural moulded parts & repairs - and can,
slightly thinned, be used as a 'penetrating' sealer for wood befor varnishing or painting.
Epoxy resin is generally easier to use, safer, stronger, more waterproof, makes a superior
adhesive -- it is incredibly versatile. What makes one brand epoxy better than another? ....
THANKS FOR THE INSIGHT from this professional user of epoxy.....

Here is the quote extracted like a tooth out of a solid jaw of type
from a surfboard site written in March 2003. So it sort of fits the time period of this thread.
And ebb's as well ....because my prejudices come from that period also.
Again, reviewed GougeonBrothers' WEST SYSTEM Brand MSDS on its main formula 105
laminating epoxy and hardeners: 205etc. Ingredients seem not to have changed in 20yrs.

http://www.seabase.eu/docs/epoxy_safety
SO, I hope it is OK to pry a few sentences from the text: Epoxy is not a carcinogen.....

"What epoxy is , is a skin sensitizer. This varies greatly between different epoxy systems
depending on different company's formulations. Most older epoxy hardeners are formulated
with a chemical known as TETA or another called DETA. These base hardeners are in the
aliphatic amine family, are very reactive, somewhat unstable, quite toxic and easily cause
sensitization of the skin (or dermatitis). Most of these hardeners are also modified with
phenol and formaldehyde. Phenol is what dermatologist use for chemicak skin peels and
increases TETA and DETA's toxicity to the skin dramatically. Many of these older hardeners
are up to 50% phenol. Formaldehyde is also no picnic as it also increases risk because
of its ability to act as a vehicle for the phenol and amines through the skin and into the blood
system. By the way, the reason why these epoxy hardeners are still used today is because
they're CHEAP. DETA and TETA cost 1/5 what a modern diamine based hardener costs to
produce. Anyone who has worked with many of the WestSystem epoxies will be familiar with
these low cost systems. Modern epoxy hardeners are nothing like their 60's counterparts.
They are formulated with modern diamines and have vastly reduced incidences of sensitization.
They also have lower vapor, better color, better finish, and lower exotherm. They contain NO
phenol and NO formaldehyde."

DETA Diethylenetriamine. TETA Triethylenetetramine. (also TEPA Tetraethylenepentamine)
There is a WestSystem mission statement that proudly admits that Dow is the progenitor of
their epoxy formulas. They DO contain phenols and DO contain formaldehyde. Even in 2014.
Being married to Dow may be good reason why WS laminating formulas are still composed
of toxics, solvents, cheap chemicals... and blush amine to prove it (possibly in embarrassment.)
Ample evidence that WestSystem has NOT upgraded to safer epoxies for their DIY customers.
(While amines and phenols are not known to cause cancer, they are considered moderately
toxic. FDA considers formaldehyde a carcinogen, and it causes chronic neurological conditions.)

..............................WEST SYSTEM EPOXY --- WE ARE DOW.......................................

Buy laminating resins from user-friendly companies who offer 100% solids epoxy.

.................................................. .................................................. ....................................
{OK, for brevity: Here are three phrases in heavy caps printed on the large lid of a bulk kg
container of the latest green powder superfood I'm drinking: ......(food for thought)
TRUTH TRUST TRANSPARENCY * FULL DISCLOSURE LABEL * NO PROPRIETARY BLENDS
Begs the question: What's on our brand name epoxy labels?}
.................................................. .................................................. ....................................
To my knowledge no third party tests have been conducted comparing tensile strength and
adhesive properties of West System Brand with other brands.

Ingredients in Side A 105 are graded mildly hazardous and low toxicity. As much as 30% of
the formula is Benzyl alcohol, Phenylmethanol. This solvent is considered hazardous when
there is 'overexposure' - as one might expect.
Bisphenol A is an epoxy monomer made with acetone & phenols. It's found in nearly every
epoxy MSDS. BisA has been identified as an endocrine disruptor.
It combines at will with human sex hormones by mimicking them.
We won't find this bon-mot in any MSDS. After all, it's not cancer. Just sex change.
It is a problem that regulating agencies do not want to handle, probably because the
compound is too pervasive in the plastics industry to control. Therefor it's dubbed 'moderately
toxic' - 'skin sensitizer' and 'low acute oral toxicity'. Corporations rule.
.................................................. .................................................. ....................................
Epoxy - allergic reactions
This thread can be found on pg5 in the Technical forum Archive
OR type into google: title +pearsonariel.org

also: resin & glass info 2-22-2015 --General/Off-topic forum
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EDIT
pauloman's epoxyproducts.com website is an experience you can't miss. For some, like me,
it's difficult to navigate. It's a riot of color, continual shouting headlines and big print. There's
all kinds of signs, like a labyrinth, that beg you to go off subject, so staying focused is the
only way to win. BUT it has the most complete information on epoxy you'll ever find.

It was here I found the original revelation of the toxicity of West System laminating epoxy.
As of July 2016, can't find it anymore. But the actual MSDS, still available on the Gorgeon
Bros site, tells the hazards of the DowChemical formula that these people foist on amateurs,
promoted by WetsMarine as your first and best choice.
Epoxyproducts sells mostly epoxy. In my opinion, I can find no 'page' on the site that collects
all cautions that should be evident, or featured, that explain just what the hazards (and
physical limitations) are when using any epoxy product.
Here is what he is saying (loosely quoted) about N-P, 'nonyl-phenol, a chemical additive in
almost all epoxies, is added to adjust A & B parts to aid in making them easy to precisely
measure. 1 to 1, 2 to 1, 4 to 1.
(Epoxyproducts talks about its good and bad properties, admits to also selling some epoxy
containing N-P) In cheap epoxies it is a "water down additive that reduces physical
properties of epoxy." It requires hazmat for shipping, it has health risks.... But most
important for us, it retards the drying of oil based enamels applied over epoxy containing
nonyl-phenol, especially in high humidity.' Raises human stress levels.
From this I can see how Epifanes (altho not sure if all their coatings are oil based) insist
that a special primer must be used over epoxy before their paints can be applied on epoxy.
Humidity is the key word in the waxy blush that epoxies like WetsSystem throw. From this
conclude that 'cheap epoxies' formulated with nonyl-phenol can screw up any later work
-- even if you wash it off (with soap and water -- solvents don't work on this wax)
Therefor the PRIMER thing insisted on by one international paint co.

Suggest that NOTHING is going to stick to wax, except dirt. Just guessing that it has
something to do with cheap epoxy 'throwing' garbage on its surface when setting -- and
tying that to nonyl-phenol tainted epoxy 'retarding' enamels -- maybe it's the same failure.
Could it be the evil twin of silicone oil??