jib track placement

[manderson]

I'm working on Commander 94 and am planning on installing longer jib sheet tracks on the toe rail (boat has life lines). I just read/skimmed through the older thread on the subject but still had a question about bending the track. I would like to install a 6' section of 1" stainless steel track (similar I believe but longer than the original track used on these boats). this track seems to be quite stiff and am having doubts of whether it can be bent to follow the rail while installing. I was thinking the schaffer track referenced in the older thread in most cases may be the newer style aluminum extrusion and easier to bend?

Does anyone have experience with bending the 1" ss track? Can this be done?

I very much enjoy reading the technical forum here as I come up with qestions and develop my own plans for the boat.

Best regards,

Mark

[ebb]

Search using google
jibtrack placement [Archive] - Pearson Ariel Association

[manderson]

Thanks Ebb. I skimmed through the thread and see reference to both ss and aluminum track, but nothing specific about the difficulty or ability to bend the stainless track. I'm thinking the comments regarding bending may all be related to the aluminum extruded track.

Still wondering if anyone out there has been able to install 1" ss track on the toe rail or if bending is too difficult.

thanks,

Mark

[ebb]

It's difficult. Guys who talk about it on forums never want to do it again!

They say do it 'incrementally'. Start at an end, fasten, then bend, fasten, etc.
If you are going to do it this way, C-clamp (2 or 3) the end with 6" to 10" long pad sides (like below here) to totally immobilize the T-track.
Having two of these. One for the end, and a second as a clamp moving forward might be all that's needed to mount the track....

One thing to be aware of is that when you have successfully created a cold curve in something as stiff as T-track,
the ends of any metal strip stay straight - impossible to curve. Have to try and fool it.
So thinking about this: I'd have the track a foot or so longer than necessary at both ends. May not have to.... but that will allow the extra track to be temporarily fastened to the rail creating a fair curve in the track that is to remain.
After it's caulked & installed, cut the ends to spec. Add extra closer together fasteners at ends, as keepers. Also install track END stops.

Something to think about:
The rail essentially has to have all holes drilled and chamfered before the CAULKING goes on. How can we do that?

Can see long 3/4" hardwood strips on both sides of the track - and a whole bunch of C-clamps.
First visualize BENDING THE WHOLE TRACK into final position between two temporary walls of oak.
Radius the bottom interior edge of the oak strip on deck to get it to lay flat against the fiberglass rail.
Because the inside of the toerail leans out about 25°, this strip has to be milled into a truncated profile (wider on top) to give the clamp heads some flat and equalized landing - otherwise they'll slip or pull the strips out of line. Another reason to stabilize the wood strips with carpet-tape.
The top of the rail in relation to the outside is approximately 90°. Might need two people to do the initial clamping
Can see carefully sized smaller strips of the same wood that are slipped under the T on both sides
- and are actually used to center and stabilize the T-track on top of the toe-rail.....in the clamping process.

Maybe this is too complicated, maybe not. The actual bending curve of the rail along the A/C cockpit is not too radical.
Whatever style of track, it's still going to be very stiff and quite long.
But T-track is being bent onto many boats, which has no doubt been taken into account by the manufacturer. Not THAT stiff!
Maybe it's left partially annealed to take a set. Imco, our toe-rail curve is too mild for track to keep a bend. It'll spring back when released.
Manufacturers sometimes prebend curves for customers.

T-track, oak strip and spacers is a lot of stuff to keep organized while bending.
Might also carpet tape the wood spacers onto the underside of the T, attempting to keep them attacht.... so that after the holes are drilled AND chamfered (extremely important for waterproofing and keeping salt out), the clamp-up can be disassembled AND put back together again after the caulking is applied, have to see. Clamped back into a fair curve, matched to the new fastener holes. Using butyl tape means you can have squeeze-out without making the disaster polysufide promises. Butyl sealant tape is already 'cured' and squeeze-out comes off clean.***
Keep the track extra long until after complete install. Then cut, dull edges, and buff.
One thing the A/C has going for them is that the rail is bent to a single plane.
Fiberglass** carpet tape is a temporary stickum. Difficult to remove, but it does come off..... Keeps wood from slipping.

Probably have a problem with what you are going to do with the cove inside the rail - how and where to attach nuts and washers. If your track is going aft by the cockpit, you might have to hire a midget to get under there to backup the fasteners properly.
The top of the rail on A338 is pretty thick. You may only going require a regular washer inside there.
Most forum responders say they never had a problem with that. INSIDE of the toerail on top is curved. A thin washer will bend a little when tightened, creating a nut lock. Fastner holes must drill in dead center top of the toerail.
Others have blocked the backup out to make a wider pad for nuts, longer bolts, and better access.

A simple job made complicated??? Maybe it'll go on 'incrementally'. Try it that way first.
Just throwing this out to get discussion going.
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*The extra longs can temporarily be fastened to the rail FROM THE TOP by tapping for machine screws. The toerail is (on A338) at least 1/4" thick and will tap coarse thread for MS. May not need to do this, but possible. Fill holes later. Maybe tempted to use this as lagging to attach T-track. NO!
**double-sided FIBERGLASS CARPET TAPE refers what the adhesive is backed with . Cheap hardware stores don't stock it. Fiberglass allows tape to be pulled off after you've used it. hardly ever all of it at once - but you can't pull the cheaper stuff off at all. Naptha cleanup. Put it on in pieces, not strips.
***3M makes a very expensive 3/32"h X 1/2"w black butyl tape expressly for installing T-track called WEATHERBAN (Jamestown). Squeeze-out using this stuff will be minimum

[Bill]

Bending SS Jib Sheet Track merged with jib track placement

[Ariel 109]

Harbor Freight sells this tubing roller that with the purchase of an addition die-set will curve rectangular stock on end, like a jib track. This machine is well made and a good value for a backyard workshop.

http://www.harborfreight.com/tubing-roller-99736.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-die-set-66598.html

[ebb]

Looks like a great tool, Ben!
How to hold T-track on its side to fit the groove in the die will take some experimenting.
Maybe hardwood filler strips will work.
Or machine-shop altered rollers (cutting in a deep groove on one side of the appropriate (2)die channels) that'll track the wings of the T.
Or a two part jig attached to the bending machine that holds and feeds the T-track on edge going in and coming out.
Again with woodstrips to guide the track in the channel of the roller die while it's bending. Mild bending, but a lot of pressure.

It would indeed be great to prebend the track so that it can be placed onto the rail without dislodging the butyl tape.
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It'll be difficult.
Reassembling straight track that requires that hardwood jig, mentioned above, to get it to curve
means that some method is needed to hold the bend over the the toerail with the caulking tape attached
(either to the rail OR the track) AND lowering it without scuffing the tape out of place.

To me that means some kind of temporary longer straight round rod inserted probably in each or every other drilled bolt hole
just to guide track & caulk to locate correctly for the fasteners.
It is important for butyl to get compressed into every chamfer. So some measure of finesse is going to be needed.
Haven't thought this move through yet!

[Bill]

It would seem to me, that unless you're looking for something that will last over 40 years, using aluminum track should be an acceptable solution. I believe that all the AC yachts, where the track was placed on the top of the rail, used aluminum track. For eg, see A-100.

[Ariel 109]

Using Delrin plastic for the die-set on a tubing roller would great for curving aluminum track. The Delrin won't mess up the anodisation on the track. You can buy the Harbor Freight tubing roller at their stores for around $60 without a base and clamp it on a workbench.

[manderson]

Thanks for the input. I think if I put any additional track down on the rail I'll be going the route of using the extruded aluminum product from Schaefer. Although, if I don't end up adding more to the toe rail and will be only putting down straight sections of track I'll use the stainless steel material which will match my existing track and the cars will all be interchangeable then.

The thought of adding additional track came about last fall after sailing the newly purchased boat a couple times and finding I could not get enough tension along the leech of the 110% genoa to keep the top from luffing when sailing close to the wind. At this point I am thinking I may be able to get close to the proper angle for the jib sheet by installing a barber haul off the foot of the aft life line stanchion. At the very least I should be able to get closer to proper trim and would like to spend some time sailing the boat before I dive into too many changes.

regards,

Mark

[ebb]

Well, there is the POUNDING METHOD dis cussed on the WoodenBoatForum 'Genoa Tracks'.
Probably will work for bronze (RigRite), not s.s.

But at the end of the series of posts there's interesting photos showing heavy blocks of timber with T-track
shapes cut into a surface and used to manually pre-bend the track. Again, this may be easier with bronze
track, while springback could be an issue with stainless. Method seems quick and dirty. But not controlable.

Still think, from the experimental perspective, that if we fill the T-track with strips of a bendy wood like elm
or oak - changing the track into a 4-square bundle - it would be easier to handle when bending stainless track.
This might work in a plain notch as pictured in WoodenBoat. Might help keep the track from getting elbow bends.
Might work in the roller-bender using fitted plain channel dies. Worth a try.

A bundle like this might be bent to the toerail by, say, clamping the center of the bundle solidly in place
on the toe-rail, then pushing the ends in as needed for drilling and clamping. This will also have to be
done incrementally because bundle ends probably will have to be overbent to get holes drilled into the
center of the rail. IE, pushed inboard past the rail and allowing it to springback into line. Dunknow.....

Can bundle be bent? Force it into a channel of 3/4" hardwood strips clamped on either side of the toerail.*

So, what length of track we want....8, 9, 10 feet?
Is it possible to make a doorskin pattern of the curve of the toerail, trace it onto a plank, cut the plank and
reassemble it with the T-track in the middle?
Maybe some routing to custom a form fit. The two sides with the track would be locked together with cleats.
Something like this will be a little ungainly, BUT allows tweeky placement and removal any number of times.
And clean disassembly after track is installed.

T-track on an A/C needs to be bent into a fair curve of no more than 4 or 5 inches 'height' in 8 to10 feet. Seems
feasible that something mild like this can be bent 'live' inside a 10" wide plank, maybe narrower, maybe
even with decent plywood. Now that I measured it off the plans, track 'straight ends' will not be noticed at all
- meaning that the actual length of track can be jigged. It won't be exact, but cheaper....

Another thing, at the back of the boats here, might make it easier to install if the track is put on the deck NEXT to
the toerail. Can block up track off the deck. Track easy to bend with clamps using the toerail Deck is solid glass
(no balsa) along the cockpit. Able to reach fastners, even SEE them!
Just tossing the monkey in here....."for the good of the order".
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*Think this one gets my vote.
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Garhauer's 1" aluminum GENOA T-TRACK may be perfect for the toerail on the A/C. It's twice as strong and 1/3rd
the price of Harkin,etc. It has a 1" radius curve on its bottom which is perfect for the round top of the rail AND
capturing the butyl tape caulk. It compact design looks like it'll be a breeze to 'incrementally' install. Garhauer has
available s.s Genoa Track $$$ (of the same profile, I believe) but is special order. Seems like AL is perfectly adequate.

[ebb]

"Tis this desire of bending all things to our own purpoises
which turns them into confusuion
- and is the chief source of every error in our lives."
Sarah Fielding

[Bill]

"Tis this desire of bending all things to our own purpoises
which turns them into confusuion - and is the chief source of every error in our lives."
Sarah Fielding

Well put . .

[jshisha]

If you look at my May 8, 2011 post you will see photos of Francine's long jib tracks mounted on the rail. They are aluminum send I am very happy with them I got them from Gauhauer. The yard ninstalled them was not a big deal.

[ebb]

Type that into the (UN) Advanced Search box up top here.

Or if that doesn't work: go to Gallery search, cursor 'Beginning'
and I think it's 3 pages deep.