Hey Rico,
Original owner installed track on the rails on Lucky Dawg. See pictures in my posts here:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15092&postcount=8
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15403&postcount=27
I think had I done it, I might have put a matching backing inside, but as I mention in the post, in 40+ years, it hasn't failed... Interestingly, that is the only sail track on LD - none forward.
Last edited by Lucky Dawg; 04-15-2009 at 12:49 PM.
Kyle
C-65 Lucky Dawg
I think the problem will be getting a good lead to the primary winches. The coaming boards will probably be in the way with the green or orange tracks.
The red track might work, with two swivel blocks--an adjustable block towards the front and one "permanent" block at the back leading to the winch.
Maybe a block on the green track to a block on the purple track and then to the winch.
It might help to go sailing and step on the jib sheet
I was just reading the July 2010 Sail mag article by Dave Gerr about appropriate sheeting angles. He does all the geometry and then calculates what the sheeting location should be for a jib and a 150% Genoa. I got curious about where his method would place the Genoa track and the sheeting point on an Ariel (see the picture below of 7 degree and 10 degree sheeting angles on an Ariel). Dave's article points out that a 150% is about the biggest sail that you can usually efficiently fly with the close hauled 7 degree sheeting angle: bigger sails have sheeting points that would be off the back of the boat!! Anyway, my surprise is that the sheeting point using his calculations for a 150 Genoa would put it almost to the back of the coaming board. Hummm. I usually sheet my 150 much closer to the standard winch position--- which happens to be about where the 10 degree sheeting angle would be. Not being on the boat right now, I can't get my head around how Dave's far aft point would actually work with respect to the shrouds, etc. Also, he builds the sail design (clew point) based on where the sheeting point is--- so that a line from the sheeting point perpendicular to the headsail luff would intersect the luff about 40% from the tack. Any comments from the racers on this article and what it would imply? What is right about it, and what might be wrong--- or full of caveats???
Last edited by Hull376; 06-21-2010 at 06:39 PM.
Kent
Interesting. My Commander came with the track out on the toe-rail and well aft. I've tried in my rookie way to experiment and always felt that the 150 and the 170 before it did best when the car was furthest aft even though the sails laid against the shroud. The "experienced" sailors told me I was wrong. Maybe I should not have listened. I also do not have life-lines or stanchions so the sail comes inboard more than it might on an Ariel with lines.
I've since had the 170 cut down to a 150. I've never missed not having that huge sail and have enjoyed running downwind with twin headsails often.
That's what I was thinking - have to take the spreaders into account visavis sheet angle.
The 10 degree jib track rule of thumb is discussed in Arthur Knapp's old book 'Race Your Boat Right'. He gives the credit of it's origination to a sail designing friend who name I don't remember. But it doesn't sound too scientifically derived, it's a rule of thumb. He also talks about double sheeted jib rigging which is having a sheet attached to the jib or one of the jib sheet that pulls the clew downward as well as the regular sheet that pulls backwards (aft). I'd like to try this out one day.
Sail designs have really changed since many of these ideals were formed. Best to be skeptical and learn from experience and experiment.
Ben
I have been reading this thread with interest especially since I have been sailing my Ariel for only 6 months and experimenting with different trim settings for the headsails. I have the original SS 30inch genoa track but the PO apparently removed the original jib tracks by the cabin sides. I have a CDI roller furler and have 2 headsails; 150% and 135%. CDI claims that I should be able to furl down to 70% of the original LP and still maintain a decent shape to the headsail although they recommend padded luffs which my sails do not have. In my case, I should be able to get the sails down to approximately 95-100% size. However, if the genoa blocks are not moved forward, I run the risk of the furler jumping up off the bearing and having a big mess to deal with. I wonder therefore, what modifications I should make to the genoa track configuration to make sure that once I furl down I can modify the trim to satisfy the smaller sail size. Can I manage a 100% headsail size with a longer genoa track or will I need to switch over an inner track by the cabin sides as originally set up for the smaller jibs? I feel it would be difficult to furl in and then have to switch the sheets to the inboard side of the shrouds but I am not sure what else would work.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Marcelo
Different sail configurations require different sheeting points -therefore; in order to achieve the best sail shape, you will need to move cars and/or shift tracks (when changing the sail size dramatically) as the sail demainds for proper trim...
Not the most desirable thing for a furled sail boat skipper... but there no way around it!
You might notice that some of the modern mass-produced boats come with a very long single tracks and remotely adjustable track cars... Not an ideal solution (again), but an attempt to cover as many of the options posible.
It is very common to see boats out on the bay carrying horrible sail trim ignoring the flailing sails' suffering with neither the crew or skipper bothering to adjust the sails...
Multiple sheet cars will ease the work required to shift from one track to another... Simply take-up the lazy sheet in on the inner track for closer trimming and switch the active shhet to the lazy side...
You can also carry two sets of sheets - one on each set of tracks/cars...
Last edited by Rico; 08-18-2010 at 08:24 PM.
Thanks for the prompt reply. Is the original 30 inch track sufficient to properly trim the 150 and 135 when closed hauled? At what size headsail would you switch to the inboard track?
Hey Marcelo,
Your 30" track COULD be sufficient for your boat provided it is in the right location for ONE of these sails... Either the 135% OR the 150% depending on where the track is...
I highly doubt that it would give you enough range to properly trim a 135% AND a 150% jib.
It is hard to say much without actually seeing the sails at work on your boat.
Proper sail trim depends on the specific sail (cut, shape, etc.) and the conditions (especially with a furler as they can adopt a strange shape under load when not fully unfurled...), as well as the location of the cars, AND the location of the track itself on the boat.
I've read a bit on the subject and found that Ivar Dedekam's short & sweet book "Sail & Rig tuning" nicely illustrated the basic points.
There are MANY discussions on the web, but many are confused and contradictory. It is all Physics, but there seems to be all sorts of opinions... The books help keep the focus on the topic succinct & to the point.
The right answer inevitably depends on the conditions... Wind direction, wind intensity, and intended course relative to this. As well as The sails, sheet geometry and the boat... it is not a very hard subject - just one that takes a bit of skill and 'art' as it depends on many variables.
Last edited by Rico; 08-30-2010 at 08:57 PM.
Going to own the Dedekam book, Thanks for the tip.
Reviews are ALL positive, if not ecstatic, about his explanations and great diagrams.
Amazon samples one page of colored graphics that alone makes this book look really exceptional.
Local Barnes and Noble store don't have it in stock.
But they'll get it delivered to me for $19.32 in four days.
Last edited by ebb; 08-20-2010 at 07:24 AM.
I try not to partially furl the genoa. The boat performs better with a reef or two in the main instead.
My genoa tracks don't run forward enough for a partially furled genoa either. I've experimented with using a "barber hauler" made up of snatch blocks on a short line attached to padeyes on deck. (like the small picture below). This way I can use the same genoa sheets and still pull the sheet down and inside a bit when the genoa is partially furled.
There is a pretty good general discussion on genoa sheet leads at the UKHalsey website with a few diagrams
http://www.ukhalsey.com/LearningCent...clopedia5b.asp
I'll reproduce it here in case the link fails
UK-Halsey's Encyclopedia of Sails
-- Genoa Trim
Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
Main Sail Trim
Genoa Trim
Sailing to Telltails
Chapter 6
Chapter 7
Chapter 8
Chapter 9
Chapter 10
Last edited by Bill; 10-13-2010 at 11:03 PM.
I will be purchasing Ivan Dedekam's book promptly. Great suggestion! The barber hauler is an interesting concept. How well do they work? When you say that you rather not furl the headsail and instead reef the main, what size genoa are you flying? Do you have any pics of the barber hauler setup on your boat?
Thanks,
Marcelo
Hi Marcelo
I have a 135 furling genoa on my boat. I don't have any pictures of the barber hauler set up. But, you can use any sort of block. The idea is just to deflect the angle of the sheet without running the sheet through a permanent lead block.
Sometimes a barber hauler is called an "inhauler." You also use these when flying a spinnaker and they call them a "tweaker" or "twing."
My idea with using a barber hauler was to get a little better shape and pointing ability out of the partially furled sail.
How well does it work? I really cant say how much it helps. If I'm rolling up the genoa I've already got two reefs in the main so its blowing like stink. I probably dont feel like pointing as high as possible. I'd rather foot off a bit in the waves and to keep from getting soaked repeatedly bashing to weather. So, I'm not sure I really need to pull the lead inboard. Besides, a partially furled genoa doesnt point as well anyway with the disturbed leading edge. Pulling the sheet down may help, but you still want the lead set aft so the top of the sail can twist off in strong winds.
Just something I've played around with.
You mentioned having a problem with your furler. Shouldnt you be able to partially furl the sail to any size with a CDI , regardless of sheet lead position?
The furler is working fine. My two main concerns are being able to adjust the trim as the clew moves forward and the fact that when the sail is furled the un-reinforced sections of the sail now have to bear the chafe and pressure of the wind. It seems more apparent as I think about this that the best for the health of the sail is to not use the furler as a reefer even though CDI claims you can reduce sail area upto 70% and still maintain a decent shape as long as you have a "padded" luff. There have been times when I have had to take in 1 reef in the main and keep the 135 but sooner or later I will find myself needing to take more in and this is what I am preparing for. I haven't tested her with the 135 completely furled and just 1 reef in the main but on my previous boat, a Pearson Vanguard, the main didn't have much drive and you found yourself being overpowered by the waves themselves.
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