Just thru bolts and double washers . The toe rail is very thick glass and I used the new T track . All bolted together it is stronger than the factory deck mounted job that lasted 40 years .
The edge of the deck is very strong glasswork and I don't feel nervous at all about it giving way.
The pull is distributed the length of the track , not on one bolt at a time .
I have seen much larger boats equiped in this manner with no problems and not as heavy glasswork as the Pearsons .
I just want to add here that I do not beleive there is a reason to reinforce the toerail structure. I installed my 1" track with 1/4" bolts, washers and nylock nuts.
The shape of the fiberglass toerail creates great strength, and that is why it is shaped, as much as to keep your toes from finding the gunwale unexpectedly. The glass I drilled on #92 was approximately 1/4" thick.
There are many irregularities on the underside of this. The glass that covers the joint on #92 from the inside is not always flat against the hull. Sometimes the hole I drilled (centered on the top) is too close to the hull side and so I used a smaller size washer. When brought up tight it bends to some extent to the shape of the glass.
Forces from the sheeting cars are distributed along the track to several holes. For these reasons I do not think (though I was concerned with reinforcement before installing) that it is necessary to provide a continuous backing.
If anything I would create an epoxy fill to seat the washers on. I used this technique when reinstalling the bow chocks. Thick epoxy pushed up into the toerail followed by a 1/4" epoxy coated strip of plywood. Then drill and tighten the nut over washers on the plywood.
that last part about filling with epoxy, please look at a previous picture/diagram i posted on 1-23-03. does either of the two "plates" shown there mimic the plywood part of your reinforcement?
i can imagine that there might be a lot of epoxy to fill the cavity.
how did you keep it from running out the ends?
i guess i am just really paranoid over this reinforcement issue, probably brought on by the report of having track pull out coupled with the manual's discussion about the hull/deck joint and voids therein.
but thanks anyway.
km#3
Yes, the plywood plate is in the horizontal plane as Plates A and B in the above diagram. The toerail is not as deep as shown in that diagram.
The epoxy must be thickened so it will not run. Several types of additives may be used. Get the West Systems book for the least expensive introduction to use of epoxy.
A pretty large quantity of epoxy would be required to do the entire track. You might try just the ends to save material.
Did I miss a post with someone's track pulling out? What were the circumstances of that?
Apparently the track being pulled out has happened to a couple of us. My experience relates to a deck mounted track.
The bolts, with the washers, literally pull through the fiberglass, bending up the track, which puts strain on the next bolt in the line, and then that too gives way. However, it was the stern end of the track that pulled out. I don't know if that would have been as likely if the car had been more centered in the track.
That is why, in my opinion, you should use a metal bar under the track that links the bolts so that the stress area on the fiberglass is more than simply the diameter of a washer.
I have inboard tracks on my Commander but my bow chocks are
attached to the toe rail. The problem I had was that there was
no way to bed the washer in the concave and irregular space
within the inner toe rail. What I wound up doing was to
bed the chock and mix up some Pro-Poxy putty. I shaped a wad
that wraps around the bolt between the washer and the glassI didn't
tighten up the bolt much but kind of flattened out the putty. The putty
cured and as it did I tightened the bolt/screw and squeezed out the 4200,(outside)
and set the epoxy into its irregular place. Solid as a rock and real clean as you can easily
mold the epoxy before it sets and can sand and paint it if you want. I've used
Propoxy to mold bushings and part seats etc. Its good stuff and is easy to work with
as long as you use gloves. I have used it with West System products without a hitch
Cheers B.
Commander #215
Mike,
Here are mine, I settled on 8' of 1" track. How long are yours?
Any tips on the install?
I plan to start forward where the bend is more severe, so I won't have to finish bending the ends with short pieces of track (and little leverage).
Looking good!
Start up by the shrouds and work your way aft , easier with a second set of hands . I need to get fired up on #45 , good weather and free time do not come together .
I was talking to a friend of my in Jacksonville on Fri. , I might be down your way in a few weeks. Let's get together for a beer . Are you on the Neuse ?
Mine are in 2 pieces, I did the genny tracks first , then decided to move the jib tracks out to the rail so I just stacked them end to end . You will need a deep thinwall socket for setting the nuts up in the toe rail.
I splashed Commmander #105 on April 23, minus the mast and jib track. Being new to sailing and boat repair I am in some need as to where I should place the jib track and how long it should be, while I have every confidense in the toerail that I rebuilt I wish to replace the new tracks inboard of the toerails. I will secure the new rails to aluminum strips 3" wide under the side decks for strength and peace of mind. The mast is another story I am having a new masthead sheave made in aluminum to the same dimensions as the old because I know no better, could the old sheave be replaced with a smaller one? Lastly the old original tiller broke in half as I was motoring around the dock in some wind and tide, good old duck tape and a c clamp came to the resue. On the way home I purchased a new tiller at good ol' West Marine for $169.00 untill I can make my own.I don't think very much of the laminated tillers or the finish on them. Also I am waiting to have the rigger make some new standing rigging for the mast as some of the old ones have burrs from the boat the rode up and down on them in the storm.
Last edited by Robert Lemasters; 04-25-2005 at 03:21 PM.
Had some time to replace the damaged jib tracks on my Commander. I used 1 1/2" wide aluminum strips the length of the tracks instead of washers under the decks to secure them. Note the slam hatch on the cockpit deck, gives me more space for storage and easy access.The toerail and end corner deck dosn't look like most of it has been replaced. Used pvc pipe for the center of the rail, fiberglassed it in and used cathair to mold it. Used auto weather stripping between coamings an side decks. Still have some painting to do and I am waiting for a masthead sheave replacement that is being made from aluminum. Summer is here and in this area the wind is very light this time of year besides being hot and humid but look forward to sailing a lot this autumn.
Last edited by Robert Lemasters; 06-08-2005 at 01:19 PM.
I've been deep in thought regarding the installation of my sail track(s) for far too long... and I need to get on it! Before I start drilling holes I'd like to learn a bit more.
To date, I've been using a bit of track I installed on the cabin top. This really works best with the storm sail. When I use it with my 100% my ability to trim is limited. (I am unable to pull in the top of the sail and suffer from excess twist at the top of the sail).
I plan to install a bit of track to use with my 100% and for proper trim, this needs to be located down on the deck, around the location of the chainplates in a similar fashion as shown in Post #15 above. I plan to use a 4' length in order to provide for sails ranging from maybe 90% to 115-120%
I am also currently able to use my 180% using an 'unconventional' rigging arrangement involving my stern cleat which actually provides reasonable trim... I will use a long track on the rail to accommodate headsails in the 130% & larger range... I currently have a 135% and my mighty 180% Genoa. (This planned track arrangement is shown in PURPLE in the picture.
- Ignore the arrangement of the sheet in this picture - I was hosing the salt water out of the sail and then started planning the location of the tracks.
My questions are:
1.- Regarding the angle of the track for the smaller headsails; I see tracks angled both inwards and outwards on many boats - sometimes the angle is quite dramatic... and this does not make sense to me.
Should the track be in line with the 'tack' (lower forward corner of the sail -attached to the stem) as shown by the RED line in the picture. Is this correct? (see QUESTION #2 BELOW)
2.- In Bill's post #15 (I attempt to illustrate the location of Bill's track in GREEN) It seems that your track will pull the sail's clew close to the centerline of the boat as you pull the car aft. Perhaps allowing for better pointing? Is this the correct angle?
3.- Has anyone installed a track on the rail? If so, what sort of construction arrangement did you make underneath in order to provide proper backing in the gap under the rail? This are is unfinished and a bit messy - I am considering filling this area in with epoxy; but this is a lot of epoxy...
Thanks in advance for any insight! (do you have a picture of your sail track arrangement?) I really do not want to poke holes and then realize I botched this up and need to poke more holes!
Last edited by Rico; 04-15-2009 at 12:40 PM.
Rico
With your permission, i'll offer one more option. A-231's tracks run from the chain plates to aft to the winches just inboard of the rail. I found this easy to fasten (it is a flat run). This works with my 110%, the 130% and allowed me to place a cleat Amidships.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...4&postcount=25
I'll eventually add another set of tracks where your drawing shows the green line once i add a blade to the sail locker.
cheers,
bill@ariel231
Thanks Bill,Originally Posted by bill@ariel231
I've had my eye on those cleat sliders. They are definitely handy amidships. It seems that you run your sheets OUTSIDE of the shrouds/stay. Is this correct?
I've considered installing the tracks just inside the toerail... It seems simpler as far as the fastening & backing... I do have a nice 10' piece of track that would conflict with my scupper holes... I'll have to put my thinking cap on and figure out how to get proper bedding for the track fasteners. Some big washers over a 2-3" wide strip of 1/2" starboard, or 1/8" Aluminum plate should look (and act) the part; I am thinking...
I've spent some quality time down in the lockers and I came out thinking that it was not as bad as I remembered... I even filled-in a small section of the rail to test the results...
I will report back shortly...
Lucky Dog,
I've looked through LD's gallery (again) and I need to hire your photographer!
I really like the contrast you get with your bright hull... Mine always looks better in person than in the pictures especially with the sun in the back which makes my red waterline look black! (That's what I get with the gray, huh...)
Awesome shots. I really like the one you have up on post #75...
Anyway thank you for the pictures. What size genoa do you fly? (Do you have the measurement of the foot?)
I saw in post #27 that LD's PO filled in the gap and covered it with a bit of glass... Maybe with the VERY thick resin & glass all you'd really need would be the nut as shown by your experience. Perhaps you'd be really secure with just a fender (big) washers in the middle run and maybe a plate washer at the ends... Seems pretty strong!
Commanderpete; Utilizing the car on the rail track (purple) as you suggest seems like the ticket to ensure proper sheet placement.
I will be spending some quality time this weekend stepping on jibsheets and putting pencil marks on the deck! I HAVE to get these puppies ON!
UPDATE: Jib tracks are on!
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...ead.php?t=1552
Post #99
Last edited by Rico; 06-23-2009 at 06:14 PM.
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