Standing Rigging

[Ted]

Scott,

Thank you for the most thoughtful reply. It certainly demonstrates how much you have thought about the problem. Hull 56 will come out for a bottom job next summer, and I'll probably tackle a few other major items at that time. Since I currently have a good friend at a stainless shop it would not be difficult to have exact copies made. I'll heed your advice with regards to inspecting, recoring, retabbing, and adding an extra hole! She has been rerigged exactly once, by me, so the rest of the rigging is in order.

[Scott Galloway]

Ted,

My comments were based on my own experience and not extensive study of the issues involved. The good news is that my bronze chainplates were probably originals installed nearly forty years ago, and I had not messed with them would probably have held a few top many more years, although they were corroded tpo the degree that it would have been irresponsible to re-install them. The bolts, however, were pretty much shot. Albotu half of them snapped whiel I was removing them.

The fourth bolt hole that i suggested is an optional thing, and I would not change my plates just to do that, but if you are ordering new plates, and if you have the space for a few more inches of steel and one more hole, then why not? This would be even more of an issue if the top chainplate bolt hole in your bulkeads (like mine) was ever so close to the top edge of the plywood and water damage had occurred there from past leaks.

The matching of chainplate holes to rigging pin size is an important issue, however, and you will need to insure that you, your chainplate fabricator, and your rigger, if that is someone other than you, are on the same page as far as hole vs. pin dimensions. It may also help if you talk philosophy with all of the above before you start to spend money.

this photo is the final chainplate installation less standing rigging. Insert is aft lower port chainplate

[commanderpete]

Lets get this thread going again. Anybody replace their rigging?

Anybody use toggles? I've only got one on the furler.

I'm going to start getting quotes to have my rigging replicated, swage fittings.

I like the idea of using Norseman or Sta-Loc, but I don't want to devote the time to the project. Sometimes you got to pick your battles. Interesting article by our own Bill Sandifer, although he's talking about the rigging on his new boat:

http://www.seafarer-research-center.com/diyrigging.htm

And a little something I came across

http://www.riggingonly.com/wire.h4.gif

[ebb]

MO-Darn rigging is too much for me. Could do credible in galvanize iron and trawl wire. So a couple weeks befor solstice I sent off a proposal to Brion Toss who uses, and I heard flogs, Sta Lok. I think it was his site that had something to say about Norseman (there are other whiners - and don't quote me on that) - what was it, a warning?, Norseman had some mechanical problems and did not respond properly to customer complaints? Doesn't matter. If I had did a survey among those on the internet (cruisers) who've actually used both: Sta Lok wins every time.

Stak Lok uses a bronze body with s.s. ends. I like the look of the original Pearson unchromed bronze turnbuckles - so I asked him about that. I want unchromed, understand the reasoning for the two metals. 338 wants to upgrade to 1/4" as well. So another question I had was whether 7/16s turnbuckles was copacetic or should it be the more massive 1/2" trurnbuckle. (Weight, Cost, AND Aesthetic considerations, etc)....

Anyway, Brion Toss Enterprises has not RSVP'ed yet. Maybe they're trying to translate my letter into real american. I will report gory details as they occur.

If you have the old rigging and you are not up-sizing - why can't you have your rigging upgraded to swageless fittings and new wire? You really DON"T need dangerous swage fittings!

[epiphany]

C'pete -

A couple of years ago I completely rerigged my Com-Pac 23D (which left just yesterday with her new owner :/ ), having the rigging shop at Sailrite do all the wire assembly work. The cost for everything was about $450 IIRC. The wire and hardware on that boat should be a size or so less than what is on an Ariel, so the quotes I've seen posted here previously don't seem out of line.

I plan to do #370 up with Norseman or Staylok all the way around, buying the wire bulk, cutting and assembling it all myself. A friend who is involved in the rebirth of a Rhodes Meridian (very similar to our Ariels) is doing this, and has estimated his costs to be near $500 for the wire and terminals.

B. Toss' comments about the quality of wire have to do with QC in the manufacturing process. According to his book and videos, wire manufactured in the US is made under much tighter controls and must meet federally-mandated specifications, so as a result it is a consistent higher quality than much of what you see coming out of Asia. (Makes sense - and its one of the few demonstrable good results of big government, IMO ). Toss also says that quality can vary betweens batches of the same type of wire from a manufacturer, and so he recommends consulting with a rigger you trust to find out who's been producing the top-notch stuff at the time you rerig.

Know any good high-quantity riggers who use a variety of wires from different manufacturers? Me neither.

One interesting rigging tidbit - in Toss' book, he states that a galvanized rig can have a life expectancy of well over 20 years in saltwater, if it is assembled and cared for properly. Serving and seizing, anyone? I think I'll stick with low-maintenance stainless just the same...

[ebb]

It was Toss' book what got me to successfully parcel and serve the wire on a gaff-cutter I had. Maintenance requires wiping down the shrouds and stays with a mix of Stockholm Tar. The smell of Stockholm Tar gets the same warm fuzzies going in me as does a Thanksgiving turkey in the oven.

A galvanized rig is a logical, proven, dependable, interactive rig. Not only is it possible to get black stains on the sails and deck and your favorite cutoffs - but there is unequivocal direct connection, when you do the work on the rigging yourself, to the great days of sail. Befor it became a sport. With leathered/spliced soft eyes you have a safe low stress rig aloft not depending on tangs and pins. Your turnbuckes are replaceable anywhere almost and all 'one' metal, not expensive hightech jewelry that can let go without warning. And you don't need Brion Toss or a rigging shop to rerig, repair or upgrade.

With a 'galvanized' rig. you probably interact with your boat on another level. Because if something happens you know you can fix it, or at least jerry-rig yourself out of trouble.

[epiphany]

ebb -

Most excellent of you, sir! You are the first person I know who has maintained ther very own galvy rig. I have a question for you regarding that Stockholm Tar -

What does that gunk do? Serve as an outer layer of "stuff" to keep salt from getting to the metal underneath? If so, I wonder aloud whether/would a more modern product such as "Corrosion Block" ("ACF-50" in the aviation world) serve the same purpose, yet without the mess and stains...

Perhaps I could crack the spine of Toss' "TCRA" and find out fer meselfs...

The Corrosion Block/ACF-50 is what we call "miracle sh*t". Up at Oshkosh for the annual EAA airshow, the company reps demo it by applying it to some sort of electrical device which they then submerge in water while it is working. Amazingly, the device continues to work. I've seen TV's working underwater, and it's weird.

Speaking to the rep the year before last (who had a bicycle LED light blinking away merrily in a glass of water, batteries and circuit board exposed in plain view - it had been there for 7 days), he told us one of their reps used to take a running electric drill that had been liberally coated with their product, and plunge it into a 5 gallon bucket of water. Now that is some faith in what you are selling! The company higher ups asked him to stop doing that, fearing legal reprisal from the family of someone who perhaps didn't coat their own tool well enough when demonstrating this remarkable feat...

[ebb]

Have to look into that Corrosion Block. I suspect that Toss or anybody else wouls choose something, anything, less messy than wood tar.

Digressing to the distant past. I found some 6 X 7 Korean trawl wire (yes, way back then.) It had a fiber core and was dressed in tar. The dressing had some set, as it didn't actually bleed tar. And back then I wouldn't have known to ask WHAT the wire had on it, I assumed it was tar. but it could have been creosote.

When I had learnt splicing around thimbles and soft eyes, I decided to do a full service on the length of the rigging. Old fashioned electric tape was wrapped around the rope (with the lay,was it?) It is a thin cloth impregnated with a tarlike gum. Then put on a "flying service" (see Toss) using tar impregnated marlin from a fisher supply. Got it smoking! Had the parceling squeeze out, and the nylon went on so tight the rigging became as stiff as rod. Mostly.

So the galvanized wire was well protected. Somewhere, after the rigging bleached a few seasons and showed signs of fuzzing I found a formula for the dressing. Wasn't from the book. It had somewhat equal parts of Stockholm Tar and varnish with japan drier added to get it to dry and skin over. It took a while to set. And then I forgot about it. You hear that some of the rigging on old clipper ships is still as good as the day it was served. UNgalvanized, right?

Stockholm Tar by its nature is a penetrant, preservative, mastic. It's always been used around wood, to caulk seams and preserve, I'm sure the Vikings used it. When ever you burn wood in an oxygen deprived space you end up with charcoal, of course, and various amounts of glop in the bottom of the pit. [It is also an antiseptic, still used for dehorning, treating wounds around animals. Like all good ole dressings it's been surplanted by cleaner more expensive pharmaceuticles, and stuff in spraycans. I don't know why it smells so good to me. The volatiles are called phenols and are related to alcohol.]

I faked it alot on my galvanized rigging. If someone like BrionToss does a compleat set from start to finish, I think 20 years is very conservative estimate of longevity. It is more like 100 years. You probably can only get the real stuff from England or Scandanavia.

[commanderpete]

Next thing you guys are going to tell us how to make baggywrinkle .

Take a look at this from the Triton site if you're going to use Sta-Locs

http://www.tritonclass.org/mir/norsstalok.html

On the turnbuckles, the original ones are "rigid jaw" turbuckles. Hard to even find them. Did see some here

http://www.riggingonly.com/stdrig1.jpg

Mostly you see the toggle/jaw variety

Probably better. I think they will be longer than the originals, so you have to factor that in

[Tony G]

Those rigid jaw turnbuckles are the style we have here. When the PO replaced the standing rigging on 113 he kept that style of turnbuckle. With 1/4" wire they are pretty 'beefy'. When I was thinking about replacing them I felt the 'T' style toggles just weren't stong enough. Absolutly no scientific proof that they weren'tas strong. It's just that they don't have the mass of the old rigid jaws. Finding toggles as robust as the rigid jaws is hard, and expensive. Anyone have any leads?

[commanderpete]

I decided to have the rigging duplicated by

http://www.riggingonly.com/

Used the same size wire 3/16, and swage fittings. I'm not planning on crossing any oceans here.

Cost was $ 543. They used 316 stainless wire and chrome bronze turnbuckles. Price included a boom pigtail, but not the headstay, which has a recent furler.

Hope it fits. The old stuff is in the back.

[c_amos]

In the midst of all this, has everyone looked at their chainplate attachments lately?

I poked at mine today. What I found was that while the port aft 'looked' good, it was not.

I slacked the shroud and removed the chain plate.

Here is what was under it. (well, actually that is what it looked like after I pealed the teak cover panel off of it, and tore it up with a screwdriver)




I was sailing on this YESTERDAY in 25 knots.

[Tony G]

Yeah, that looks familiar. Wood that had a similar appearance to your chainplate knee is what precipitated the complete rebuild of 113. Of course, it was just going to be a quick repair of the bulkhead at first. Then look at what happened!

It doesn't surprise me that it held up to sailing the day before. Where is it going to go? It wouldnt rip through the deck. Not that I advocate that behavior ! The main thing is that you were inquisitive enough to do some digging around probably based on what you had found elsewhere. Ariel/Commander owners are just smart. No bias here. Just proven fact.

[frank durant]

Have you considered an external mounted chainplate system.I've thought of peeling the paint away ,putting a couple of layers of cloth and west epoxy for additional backing and mounting them out.End of worries and by epoxying the existing chainplate holes , the potention delamination on deck in that erea do to water penetration would be minimized.I don't think it would be a big job at all (famous last words) but would require new-longer plates....good time to do rear stay plate ouside also.I'm seriously considering it this fall. I think that is probably the weakest link with these aging boats at this time. #50

[Bill]

Frank, have you looked at the external chainplates on Geoff's thread in the gallery forum?

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...5&page=4&pp=15

Photos of the cp's are shown in posts 60 - 62. They were installed by Tony Benado who sailed the boat to Australia.