Standing Rigging

[commanderpete]

I posted a question about 304 vs 316 wire on the Brion Toss forum "Spar Talk" as follows:

"When replacing standing rigging, what are the pros and cons of one type of wire over the other. I understand 304 is stronger and cheaper, but 316 is more corrosion resistant for salt water. However, the boat is sailed on the Great Lakes."

I got this response from the man himself:

"Hello,
Get the best quality wire you can, of either alloy. You don't need 316, but if you could find a brand of it that had breaking strength comparable to 302, and if this wonderful wire actually cost less than most 302's, that would be the stuff to get. As it happens, that is the wire we sell...
Fair leads,
Brion Toss"

Very mysterious. I suppose he's trying to keep business for himself (yet won't respond to your requests for a quote). We can probably assume he only uses one type of wire--his "special" 316.

He's throwing another dimension into the equation: the quality of the wire. I think I'd be comfortable with BoatUS. Just for kicks, you could ask them the manufacturer and rated breaking strength.

Are you using the procedure where you send your old rigging to them and they duplicate it? Sounds like a good way to go, since errors of measurement can be a big problem.

To that end, you might want to inquire about the turbuckles. I've seen two different sizes used on our boats, one larger (thicker) than the other. Thicker turnbuckles can also be an inch or so longer.

The equiptment list in the Manual specifies 3/8" pin diameter turnbuckles. They may be trying to sell you 5/16" (about half as strong).

[Bill]

Interesting idea about shipping old shrouds to be duplicated. Here, most of us use a rigger who comes out and drops a measuring line for each wire. The advantage may be that new wire stretches and if you use the old (stretched) wire for measurements, the new wire could end up being too long.

[Dave]

My experience is that riggers will want you to tune the rigging, tape the studs where they exit the turnbuckles, and then back the turnbuckles to remove the shroud or stay.
The rigger will then measure the whole unit set as marked and compensate for stretch when building the new one.
--Dave

[Theis]

Interesting thing flew though the window this evening. SailNet has an informative piece on replacing standing rigging. http://www.sailnet.com/view.cfm?page=10278

However, they missed the details that are being raised in this forum -but it is still interesting stuff.

Since I take the spar down for the winter, it makes it easy to send in the standing rigging in to be duplicated. That way, if it doesn't work, I have an indisputably right to complain. On of the fears, a rational fear that has held true too many times for me, is that of having the work done over the winter when there is plenty of time to do a job right, and then when spring comes and the boat is ready for the water, either the part/work/whatever is not done, or doesn't work - and there will be a two day/week/month/year/decade/millenium/eon delay. Sending the rigging in should help alleviate that concern.

As to the wire manufacturer, I would like to assume 316 is definitive, but if I were to ask the name of the manufacturer, I wouldn't know a good Korean, Russian or Japanese one from the bad one. I have to believe that a professional rigger doesn't goof around with questionable materials.

Good comment about the turnbuckles. I had been asked about the clevis sizes but didn't pay much attention (That is an advantage of sending the originals to the rigger). The ones quoted are 3/8"

Incidentally, the price quoted was $611.42 plus $15.00 shipping. The pin size is 3/8". The quote includes eight shrouds, new turnbuckles, and the replacement combination line/cable main halyard. It is based on the specs in the Ariel source book so capably published by the administrators of this website.

[Tony G]

Theis
This thread is fleshing-out some good points. I didn't think six hundred is too high assuming 1/4"wire and new turnbuckles. One thing I've learned since jumping into boats is that nothing new is cheap, even the cheap stuff. Because of being in the middle of nowhere I counted on having to do my own rigging via The Rigger's Apprentice and This Old Boat and supplies alone were in the neighborhood of four hundred plus. Of course that price included either norseman or sta-loc terminals all the way around and I don't think a rigger would bother with the added expense with all of that swaging equipment laying around. I can't wait to see how this all ends. Tony G

[Mike Goodwin]

OK ,if no one else will say it I will . Theis , you ordered 6 shrouds and 2 stays , not 8 shrouds .
We must keep the 'salt ' level up on this forum if we are ever going to go pro and take it on the road . Click & Clack , The Tappet Bros. , need a nautical counter on PBS and it could be us if only we can get it all in one sock . Commander Pete has been working too hard on his routine for us to let him down now , so let's not let him down or we wont even be allowed to sail on Lake Wobegon ;>)

[Tony G]

Theis
This thread is fleshing-out some good points. I didn't think six hundred is too high assuming 1/4"wire and new turnbuckles. One thing I've learned since jumping into boats is that nothing new is cheap, even the cheap stuff. Because of being in the middle of nowhere I counted on having to do my own rigging via The Rigger's Apprentice and This Old Boat and supplies alone were in the neighborhood of four hundred plus. Of course that price included either norseman or sta-loc terminals all the way around and I don't think a rigger would bother with the added expense with all of that swaging equipment laying around. I can't wait to see how this all ends. Tony G

[commanderpete]

Salty Mike is keeping an eye on us

[Theis]

I'm really being hauled on the carpet (I think that is the expression - hoping I haven't screwed up again).

Yes, there are two stays and six shrouds. And just a few months ago I would have erred again saying four masthead shrouds and four baby shrouds. I'll bet Bill has something built into this website so that something like that wouldn't pass spell checker when "submitted". It would be rejected just like something over 10K characters is. No one would ever know my blunder and I wouldn't have egg on my face (I was actually just testing y'all.)

Tony: all those wires are 3/16", not 1/4". Does that change your opinion about the price? Norseman and Sta Lok are both more expensive, and apparently significantly so.

Bill: For the next update of the manual, you might want to add the clevis pin size. (although I did notice that those wires that go up the mast were correctly named in the manual - a benefit to those that read). Possibly even something about the 316 v. 304 wire might be of interest.

Perhaps my misnaming the wires is why Brian Toss did not reply. He probably figured I wouldn't know the difference between 316 and cotton clothes line.

[Mike Goodwin]

I'm going with swaged at the top and Norseman at the lower ends , why ;
1) they can be shortened if needed from stretch
2) the Norseman are more waterproof and stronger
3) I hope my upper ends are never in saltwater

[Theis]

I need some help with words from the experts. This question has destroyed my whole day, and threatens Christmas.

Where does the word "shroud" come from? I can't believe they are named after the inventors, Bertram and Hazel Shroud, who dreamed up the idea in 1926.

It is curious that it would only pertain to side stays (Is that true?). I assume the word comes from way back and relates to the square riggers in some fashion, but if so, there must be further limitations on the scope of the word. Why would it also pertain to half stays?

Whoever figures out this one gets ten points on the GoodGuy scale.

[ebb]

Modern convention separates the good guys (that brace the mast) into shrouds and stays. Shroud goes way back to viking ships in describing the ropes that held up the mast. The root word SKRUTH means clothing in Old Norse - probably the cloak or outer garment, the shroud - ie the stuff protecting you from the elements and by extention protecting the ship, the mast of the ship.

Maybe the expression "to dress ship" originally meant to skruth up yer longboat with a proper mast, an upstanding male member.

Stay is a younger word devoid of poetry describing a job of work, while shroud metaphorically describes what it looks like while it is doing it.

You have a staysail because why would you have a shroudsail. Or a guysail for that matter.

[commanderpete]

Way to go ebb. All questions get answered here (in one fashion or another).

What I want to know is...where can we pick up a bottle of Chateau Ebb wine?

[Theis]

Now I can relax and enjoy the holiday season, one upping all those guys that use fancy words like "cheeks", "lazarettes", "sheave", "bow", "rope" and "back end".

I am impressed. My wife couldn't answer that question.

[Mike Goodwin]

I thought their origins were shrouded in mystery !