Standing Rigging

[Theis]

When should standing rigging be replaced? I sail my craft in fresh water, but the shrouds are now forty years old - still the original set. I have had them checked professionally and they appear good with no discoloration or apparent corrosion. A clean bill of health.

However, all the rigging places I have talked with say 20 years is the limit, regardless of what they look like. Does anyone have any experience in this regard? Has everyone replaced theirs? Have there been any bad experiences with the original standing rig failing?


Here are a couple comments I have heard from riggers. If, in the north country, you leave the mast mounted when out of the water, it is very hard on the standing rigging, even if the turnbuckles are loosened to allow for contraction with the cold. First of all, water drips down, getting in the swage fitting, freezes, and can hairline crack the fitting. The crack is not detectable, until the shroud explodes while under strain. Secondly, when the wind buffets the boat in the winter, with the hull on a rigid mount, the shrouds take all the jerking and pounding, since the boat can't cushion the jolts as it would when in the water, and this pounding can weaken the shroud.

Even regardless of how the mast is stored, corrosion can occur inside the swage fitting, or the swage fitting can become cracked or damaged, and not detectable. The argument goes - "Don't take a chance".

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Dave]

Check out www.briontoss.com

This is our local rigger - well respected, author of excellent books and videos. Look at the articles and discussion sections of the site.

If you have 40 year old rigging, I suspect I know what Brion would say.

[Bill]

Chapter III of the Owners Manual covers standing and running rigging and includes maintenance and safety information. It discusses many of your questions.

Riggers in our area (SF Bay - saltwater environment)recommend replacing standing rigging at ten year intervals.

[Theis]

I posted it. We'll see what he says. Did you put on new stays because of age?

[Theis]

I received a partial answser - more research is forthcoming hopefully. The life of standing rigging does depend on the use, climate, size, the steel, etc. di da di da, etc.

However, the controlling event may well be that stainless steel crystalizes with time and use, and, according to one rigging source, if it has crystalized, it will fail catastrophically.

I'll find out more if I can, like what causes it to crystalizes (and that would relate to the life).

[Theis]

Here is the answer I got from Brian Toss

From: "peter@briontoss.com" <peter@briontoss.com>
Subject: ariel rigging


Hello Mr. Theis,


This is a followup to your question about how you tell when it is time to replace your rig. The answer is that stainless steel rigging is defeated by metal fatigue and galvanized steel rigging is defeated by rust.
A stainless steel rig will wear out over time even if it never sails but is constantly tied to the dock or a mooring. This is because even while tied to the dock the rig undergoes hundreds of tiny load cycles where the boat rocks one way and the shrouds get tighter, then looser. Over thousands and thousands of load cycles the rig will eventually wear out. You can see the signs of metal fatigue if you look at the wire and swages wih some kind of magnification. In this shop we use a small 50 power microscope to see the pits and cracks of metal fatigue.
Your boat would seem to have the most going for it in terms of rig life. That is you are in a cold northern climate, fresh water, and do not sail year round. However if the rig is original from 1962 it should be replaced. Around here we start thinking about replacing a rig based on age alone around 20 years.
I hope this has answered your question.


Regards,


Peter Bates

I also called West Rigging and they gave me a similar answer with some additional details. The stainless steel does corrode, but, unlike galvanized it is not readily visible. The corrosion tends to be inside the shroud where it is not visible.

There are two types of wire used (one is 602 and the other 612, as I recall - the latter being used in salt water, and the latter in fresh water) The 602 tends to break at the fitting. The latter tends to break an inch or so above the swage fitting. The latter wire while under compression in the fitting is not under pressure above above the fitting. So it works, twists, stretches, whatever in the short area above the fitting.

In any case, everyone agrees that when the shrouds go, they generally go catastrophically. There is no slow first one strand, then another and with time all of them. There is just one shot.

It appears that when the shrouds are changed, the turnbuckles are also replaced. Apparently they too fatigue.

I have been informed that a set of 8 Ariel shrouds will cost about $550 to $600. Anyone else have any more insight on the price issue?

[mrgnstrn]

i want to second the idea that shrouds do not degrade gracefully, a strand at a time.

i was sailing my (now) old boat, a 16' hobie cat, with my father, and out of no-where, the mast catapulted off the deck and sails, mast and all catapulted into the river. after regaining composure and putting the mast back on the trampoline, we found the culprit, a broken shroud. it is now on my desk at work.

i agree that it makes no sense, that if there are 19 strands or so, one shouldn't break the stay totally, but it does. the engineer in me is still pondering why. my only though is that when the one breaks, it not only sends it's load onto the other strands, but there is a force/pressure pulse, usually exceeding the strength of the wire. and so under a slo-motion camera, one might see the first break, and send it's pulse up/down the shroud and when it reflects back to the site, breaks the rest. but since the shroud is under such tension, the frequency of the wire is so high the naked eye can't see the two actions occuring separately.

just a though.
-km
#3

[Theis]

My three quotes for a replacement set of standing rigging (8 stays, with turnbuckles and swage fittings) and a new main halyard (the combination of wire rope and line as in the original). FYI, the price ranges ran from the high five hundreds to the mid eight hundreds, so it does make sense to shop.

Riggers all seem to agree that swage fittings are fine for this boat and it doesn't make sense to go to the more expensive Norseman or Sta Set (?) fittings. There is also agreement that the turnbuckles should be replaced when the shrouds are replaced.

However, an issue has arisen, and I would appreciate any comment. There is wide disagreement on the cable that should be used. The original shrouds, as I understand it, are 302/304 stainless steel. The 316 stainless, I am told, is a bit more flexible, and has much higher corrosion resistance than the 304. There appears to be a concensus is that near salt water, 316 is better. Another rigger said that 316 is the cable that everyone will be using (although it is not a new blend, but the price has dropped, apparently). Another rigger said that in the Great Lakes, there is no need for it. Another rigger said there is no reason to pay the extra money for the 316 if I am not near salt water

Curiously, the highest and lowest bids were 304. And the 316 bidder said that the 316 today was no more expensive than the 304.

Does anyone have any insight that could ameliorate the self perceived confusion of this farm boy?

[commanderpete]

As I understand it, 316 is more resistant to all types of corrosion, not just salt water in particular.

304 is somewhat stronger. Of course its the corrosion that causes the failures.

You might want to ask the 304 guys what type swage fittings they use, since these are usually 316, and it doesn't seem to make sense having two different types of materials.

I'm sure either material would be fine in fresh water. This might be a good question for the Brian Toss forum.

One important factor is the quality of the swages. You want the swages done on a true rotary swaging machine. This is a massive piece of equiptment which only the larger rigging outfits have.

Most riggers don't do the swaging but send the measurements to a company that supplies the wire and does the swaging. Ask them which company does this work for them. You don't want somebody doing the swages in his garage.

[Theis]

You are right about only a few firms doing it. I received quotes from Boat US, West Rigging, and Palmer Johnson (local, but big). I hadn't thought about the issue as to what the fittings were made from, but that information is worthwhile. I would prefer not to mix metals.

As for Brian Toss, they have been notoriously unresponsive. I did ask them for a quote ( couple times) and they only profusely apologize for the couple month delay.

Your comments have more or less convinced me, or confirmed my decision that 316 is the way to go.

[Theis]

I appreciate your comments. The quotes I got were from West Rigging (304 highest bid), Boat US (316 middle), and Palmer Johnson (a local, but large marine facility)(304, lowest). I asked Brian Toss to quote a couple times ( which seems to be the pattern in that industry), and he has yet to reply since the second request (a couple months have gone by).

It seems like you are confirming my thoughts that 316 is the only way to go, if there is no cost difference. Your comment about the swage fitting tells me something, since my own experience tells me that mixing metals is generally to be avoided.

Your comment about other types of corrosion is relevant. For many years my boat wintered in the industrial south side of Chicago, and, based on how the chrome disappeared, and the aluminum got pitted, I have wondered about just how polluted the air was down there.

Thanks.

[commanderpete]

I posted a question about 304 vs 316 wire on the Brion Toss forum "Spar Talk" as follows:

"When replacing standing rigging, what are the pros and cons of one type of wire over the other. I understand 304 is stronger and cheaper, but 316 is more corrosion resistant for salt water. However, the boat is sailed on the Great Lakes."

I got this response from the man himself:

"Hello,
Get the best quality wire you can, of either alloy. You don't need 316, but if you could find a brand of it that had breaking strength comparable to 302, and if this wonderful wire actually cost less than most 302's, that would be the stuff to get. As it happens, that is the wire we sell...
Fair leads,
Brion Toss"

Very mysterious. I suppose he's trying to keep business for himself (yet won't respond to your requests for a quote). We can probably assume he only uses one type of wire--his "special" 316.

He's throwing another dimension into the equation: the quality of the wire. I think I'd be comfortable with BoatUS. Just for kicks, you could ask them the manufacturer and rated breaking strength.

Are you using the procedure where you send your old rigging to them and they duplicate it? Sounds like a good way to go, since errors of measurement can be a big problem.

To that end, you might want to inquire about the turbuckles. I've seen two different sizes used on our boats, one larger (thicker) than the other. Thicker turnbuckles can also be an inch or so longer.

The equiptment list in the Manual specifies 3/8" pin diameter turnbuckles. They may be trying to sell you 5/16" (about half as strong).

[Bill]

Interesting idea about shipping old shrouds to be duplicated. Here, most of us use a rigger who comes out and drops a measuring line for each wire. The advantage may be that new wire stretches and if you use the old (stretched) wire for measurements, the new wire could end up being too long.

[Dave]

My experience is that riggers will want you to tune the rigging, tape the studs where they exit the turnbuckles, and then back the turnbuckles to remove the shroud or stay.
The rigger will then measure the whole unit set as marked and compensate for stretch when building the new one.
--Dave

[Theis]

Interesting thing flew though the window this evening. SailNet has an informative piece on replacing standing rigging. http://www.sailnet.com/view.cfm?page=10278

However, they missed the details that are being raised in this forum -but it is still interesting stuff.

Since I take the spar down for the winter, it makes it easy to send in the standing rigging in to be duplicated. That way, if it doesn't work, I have an indisputably right to complain. On of the fears, a rational fear that has held true too many times for me, is that of having the work done over the winter when there is plenty of time to do a job right, and then when spring comes and the boat is ready for the water, either the part/work/whatever is not done, or doesn't work - and there will be a two day/week/month/year/decade/millenium/eon delay. Sending the rigging in should help alleviate that concern.

As to the wire manufacturer, I would like to assume 316 is definitive, but if I were to ask the name of the manufacturer, I wouldn't know a good Korean, Russian or Japanese one from the bad one. I have to believe that a professional rigger doesn't goof around with questionable materials.

Good comment about the turnbuckles. I had been asked about the clevis sizes but didn't pay much attention (That is an advantage of sending the originals to the rigger). The ones quoted are 3/8"

Incidentally, the price quoted was $611.42 plus $15.00 shipping. The pin size is 3/8". The quote includes eight shrouds, new turnbuckles, and the replacement combination line/cable main halyard. It is based on the specs in the Ariel source book so capably published by the administrators of this website.