Heavy Weather

[commanderpete]

Seems to be big winds every weekend around here.

Very few boats out. Those that venture out often fly just a scrap of their roller furling genoa. I never liked sailing that way.

But, Carl Alberg designed his boats with a giant mainsail. Even with a reef in the main, its still alot of sail.

Unfortunately, I only have one set of reef points in my sail. When the wind pipes up, the boat is rail down. There is alot of weather helm and the stern gets squirelly in the waves.

I could have the sailmaker add another set of reef points. But, 20% less sail would probably handle only another 5 kts of wind.

Anybody use a storm trysail?

Any heavy weather techniques people want to share?

They tell me San Francisco gets a little wind.

[Bill]

Funny, we always sail "rail down." Ed is the best one to discuss heavy weather rig tuning to reduce weather helm. His knowledge is also in the manual. My experience has been that one reef and a 110% jib are ok up to about 40 knots. After that, you may not want to be sailing to weather

[commanderpete]

40 knots?!!!

I've been in 40 knots with just a reefed main. The leeward winch drags through the water. You can walk on the coaming boards. From the cabin, you can see green water through the porthole. Looks like an aquarium.

The crew starts to complain, buncha whimps.

[Bill]

Hey, it's no fun unless the water is coming over the coamings and into the cockpit . .

[Theis]

I have two sets of reef points, one reducing the sail area 20% and one reducing it 40%. I don't recall in recent years using the second set, but if a big T storm set in, I would go down to the second set with no jib. From there I could use a fisherman's reef (main luffing along the luff, but full astern). I try to always carry some sail.

Be aware that there are no standards for reef points as to how much sail is dropped. The way I settled on my 20%/40%, as I recall, was by asking the sailmaker what ocean sailors did, and was told that they have three sets, at 15%, 30% and 45%. With two, I split the high number, more or less.

Remember that it is not just the sail area that is reduced but the height of the remaining sail area on the mast. This eases the torque.

[Bill]

Hey, Alberg did not design his boats for sissies. You sail full up into the teeth of the gale. None of this 15%, 30%, 45% stuff. Why else sail a Commander to Greece?

[Theis]

Agreed! He designed them well, and with a degree of prudence they can take almost anything other than striking terra firma. Out there in the Bay you have the pleasure of reasonably consistent 35 knot winds and know what you are getting into for the next couple hours. You can just trim down and lean the good ship over. Here, in the hinterlands, the wind can change from 5 knots to who knows how much in seconds with the arrival of a front. Then down to ten knots, then up to 70 knots. No precision, no certainty. No time to adjust for too much wind after it hits. Adjustments have to be made in anticipation beforehand (unless you are racing in which case you take your chances and replace spars and sails as needed). Often weather forecasts are useless. And the wave action can be significant. And we have lightning, thunder, and anvil shaped black clouds that go beyond 90,000 feet that would scare a witch. Further, there is a big difference between having the rail in the water, having the windows in the water, and having the cockpit coaming under water. Lastly, buying a new spar is too expensive. Have I made the case for reef points?

Bad weather sailing is neither fun nor sailing and generally is to be avoided, if possible - but it is awesome - if prepared (Perhaps the expression that "I am getting too old for that" is appropriate). As for sailing in reasonably steady winds, it is fun to have the rail in the water, or the window being washed - unless you are involved in the dating game when there are other considerations.

[commanderpete]

Sometimes the hardest part of sailing in high winds is getting the sail up and down singlehanded. In rough conditions, the boat doesn't want to stay in the wind. Trying to wrestle that flogging sail into submission can be an adventure. Would be real easy to fall off the boat.

Here is a great photo of a folkboat in heavy weather.

[commanderpete]

Say Bill, with the rigid vang, is the boom as steady when you lower the sail, or does the boom bounce around more than with a topping lift?

[Bill]

Steady as she goes . . just tighten up and all vertical motion ends. Side to side (if boat is rolling)is another matter. A preventer will minimise this action.

Most of us can raise, lower and reef our mains from the cockpit. The jib is a different challenge. I'm planning to work with a rigger on a dousing set up that can be used from the cockpit, but this is currently a low priority. Right now, I'm working on replacing the backstay chainplate. Film at five on this one . . .

[commanderpete]

Something like this for a jib downhaul?

http://bosunsupplies.com/Downhaul.cfm

[Dave]

Ok. Two questions:
Do you guys REALLY sail the boat with water flowing over the side decks? I mean, I've dipped the rail under, but a steady 35 degree heel?
Regarding reefing the main on my Ariel: I have never used the roller boom set up, don't even know if it works and don't want to. I have a ram's horn (hook) to hold the luff cringle and a line rove though the leech cringle round a turning block on the boom to a cleat halfway along the boom.
In order to hook the luff cringle to the ram's horn, I have to release a stop at the bottom of the mast track, drop out a few sail slides and close the stop. This prevents me from setting up single line jiffy reefing.
What do you guys do to get the slides free of the track -- or do you just let them stack up and create a lump of sail cloth above the gooseneck?
Finally, I'm thinking of buying a loose-footed main. You folks have any experience with them on these boats? (I recall that you use one, Bob).
--Dave G Ariel 357

[Bill]

Pete,

Yes, that looks like it should do it. May have also seen the same drawing in either a Harkin or Schaffer cataloge.

[Bill]

Sorry to say, sometimes we're just too lazy or too hypothermic to remember to reef the main and we go along for miles with the top rail way under the water

Loose footed mains are highly recommended. Ed would agree, but he's working the Giants' home games this week and is out of touch

[Theis]

Some alternative ideas:

I have all my lines going to the mast, not the cockpit. I can stand up at the mast with something very solid to cling to. I can't do that in the cockpit with the boat healing way over.

Dropping sails only gets you half way there. The biggest time burner and challenge is securing the sails to keep them out of the water, particularly the foresail. It takes only two seconds to drop the foresail. But many minutes to pick it up out of the water. Being on the foredeck, I can control that it lands on the deck and, in a blow, secure it to the bow pulpit or take it off.

The same problem exists for the mainsail. I have to tie it up to see where I am going (although lazy jacks might help there but that is just more clutter). So no matter how I cut it, I can't sit in the cockpit and drop sails while drinking beer. I have to move my body.

One other point. How much clutter do you want lying where? With the lines on the mast, they are out of sight and away, all at one point. On the cabin top they are just something more to get caught/snagged. My cockpit is already reasonably busy.

As for roller reefing, Dave, I have tried it and don't like it at all. Perhaps in an emergency, it is better than nothing, but it unravels. My reefing rig has two lines through the boom to the outhaul, one line for each of the two sets of reefpoints. They are secured at the forward part of the boom, right next to the hooks. When I reef, I do take sliders off the mast track as appropriate (another reason why everything is at the mast). I can tell you more about that if interested. I strongly recommend battens that are parallel to the boom (SORC), not perpendicular to the leech . It makes for easier reefing and securing of the dropped mainsail.

Pete, you raised an interesting question about how to control the boat while you are doing all these things. Impossible in my experience without tying the tiller - which at best is only marginal. Last year I used a Davis Tiller Tamer. If everything goes right, it gives you enough time to drop the main and the jib (and keep them out of the water) before running back and resetting the boat direction (and that timing includes using a tether when going forward). If it doesn't go as planned, it might take two trips. The Tiller Tamer, unfortunately, slips and, although better than nothing, or a tying a rope around the tiller and cleating it, is less than desireable.

The best alternative is an Autohelm. That makes raising and lowering sails a piece of cake. Take your time. Even sit on the foredeck and relax. If you get the remote control and have it mounted or carry it forward, you can even change the boat direction - a bit up wind, a bit more offwind - while you are on the foredeck. It is really like having a second person on board.

As for the loose footed main, I think that is the way everyone is going - or so I have been told. I have one and it works like a champ. Just be sure, if you do that, that you have a slider at the outhaul to hold the outhaul down (My sailmaker did not put one one initially and it took some time before I recognized what I was missing).

Hope that helps.