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Thread: C-025 Bisquit

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,542

    Tiller Tale

    Thanks for telling the tale...
    And showing us how to stack together a new tiller!!
    'S' curves are sexy. You've got a beut!

    Came to the same conclusion, but had mine made.
    Less knees to crunch, but also the massive tiller fitting was
    pretty bent on A-338, and the bitty machine screw that holds
    it all together was worn enough to require replacing....
    thought that an upstanding tiller (named mine: Cobra)
    would keep more square mm of metal together at the fitting.
    Standing in the cockpit be able to steer with the tiller
    almost in an at rest position, fully engaged. Where it ought to
    be when sculling. And on a broad reach...on a beautiful day...

    Also, instead of fixing the tiller thru its side, drilled some
    holes thru the top of the old fitting, and thru an added plate
    on the bottom, so as not to mess up the laminations...
    actually clamping them permanently together...
    (sorry, couldn't resist. you do fine carpentry, suh!)
    Last edited by ebb; 09-26-2016 at 08:31 AM.

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118
    Good idea on the bracket. through the top. Why don't they make all brackets that way?

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,542
    99% of all traditional tillerheads attach the tiller on its sides.
    Leaving the top open.
    Every once in awhile you see one that holds the tiller butt in a channel, like
    ours, if you have the original.
    It's really a massive fitting. Easy to imagine ours translated to formed steel
    channel, which is seen sometimes in modern boats.
    If you've given the tiller a snug fit in the fitting, where can it go sideways??

    Sideways bolts really mess with the laminate. How many pieces in the
    glueup? 5 - 6 ? Drill holes sideways thru the tiller, you've severed two or
    three of them! Sideways holes will collect moisture. We will seal the holes.

    Clamping the tiller into the 'channel' seems so natural, it boggles the mind
    why it isn't done by everyone.
    Nuts are on the bottom, some may object to that. but you could dap them
    in a bit in shallow counters with a medium size fender washer, leaving the
    nuts half exposed.

    Besides the sides of the channel are too short to spread the bolts properly.
    Tiller has some lams that are even more compromised, maybe causing the
    break you experienced. The original tiller probably was cut from solid wood.

    Can use carriage bolts in square holes for a smooth look.

    I found some slotted oval head bronze strut bolts at TopNotchFasteners,
    Drilled three chamfered holes in a row like buttons along the top of the
    channel. If anybody asks what the empty holes in the sides are for,
    they're there so the tiller can breathe, of course!

    Line up the slots and nobody will argue with you....
    Last edited by ebb; 09-27-2016 at 03:05 AM.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Scarborough, Maine
    Posts
    1,432
    Here you go - a variation of Capt Ebb's excellent advice in action on an original tiller fitting:



    From the "tiller Discussions" thread: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...er-Discussions

    From post #40, this pic shows the potential problem Ebb is talking about.



    Thanks again Ebb!
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118
    I'm going to do this. It makes so much sense. I have the original fitting. I had it re-chromed last winter. I'll get some nice stainless carriage bolts and recess the nuts in the bottom of the tiller I'll live with the temp tiller until the end of the season (unfortunately pretty soon). My laminate has 11 layers at the butt end. A 1/2" bolt will go through 2 - 3 of the layers. Thanks for the excellent advise.

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,542

    fantastic photos

    of an ugly truth

    Chinese proverb:
    "To hear something a hundred times isn't better than seeing it once."
    Or twice, as Mike shows. May the sun always be out of your eyes



    Can't help adding:
    Instead of washers under the nuts underneath the tiller, I had a piece of 1/8" everdur
    (stainless plate here would be OK) and shaped it to hopefully do a little double duty.

    We have to skinny down the butt of the tiller to make it fit in the tillerhead channel.
    So It ended up that the 'washer plate' is only 1" wide. And 6.5 inches long -- which
    extends it beyond the end of the channel. Backup-plate is shaped a bit like a tongue!

    My reasoning is that damage to the tiller is usually bearing/falling down suddenly on it.
    And maybe adding the bit of overhang (no extra fastening like a screw) at the lever
    breakpoint may support, add a little resist. Plate weighs very little.


    Occurs to me, if you agree that this narrow plate rather then the usual washers is an
    improvement... that it could be extended further out and thru fastened with smaller
    diameter machine screws,
    to keep the tiller intact for at least a couple serious downers.
    Have to assume, even when the lams are glued well, they are held under tension, and
    still want to straighten. 2 or 3 small MS will add refusal to lam movement.
    And incidentally, mechanically tie the tension side to the compressed.

    I have the short version now. But if I clone, and find the time to make an essential
    metal 'lamination', what? maybe, 10 or 12 inches long. 2 or 3 #12MS. Attempting to
    erase the breakpoint of our vulnerable and valuable cockpit companion.
    (Spare tiller can be a straight piece of white oak, already fitted to the channel, and
    a couple of Lanocoted screw C clamps -- to get you home.)

    Realize, that a counter argument is that a breakable tiller saves damage to the
    irreplaceable tillerhead and shafthead. The unthinkable would be much harder to fix.
    It's also good to have a spare tiller, fitted and predrilled for the bolts,. with bolts.

    304/316 stainless may react to tannins in oak,. must be isolated.

    ??imco -- it's all for fun
    Last edited by ebb; 04-10-2017 at 04:38 PM.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118

    Losing the Outboard Well

    I decided to get rid of the outboard well. Since I converted the boat to an inboard I no longer need it. At first I thought I would keep it in case I decided to use an outboard at some point in the future. However, after a season sailing her I don't think that is likely. The reasons for the effort are many:
    • Nicer lines
    • Better performance under sail and power. (I am pretty sure the well was creating drag when motoring and some times when under sail)
    • More room in the stern lazzerette
    • The foam between the lazzerette liner and the hull was saturated and caused the new finish to blister.
    • Less weight in the stern.

    First order of business was to cut the old well and liner out then dig the foam out. First I cut the old well from the outside then cut the inner skin out. After that I was able to pry out the old well and dig out all of the saturated foam. I filled up a trash can with 100 lbs of foam, glass and smutz.

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    Here it is tented up and ready to grind and prep for glass.

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  8. #83
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118

    Corrector Weights

    I am tying up the last details from the outboard to inboard conversion. The Yanmar is in and happy. The outboard well is history and the hull is ready for paint.

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    Time to lose the corrector weight. If this is my corrector weight it measures 32 x 10 x 5. If I deduct the cut out for water flow I get 1456 cubic inches. At .41 lbs per cubic inch that is just south of 600 lbs. The Yanmar weighs 251 lbs. I cut out 100 lbs when I git rid of the outboard well so I have a net reduction of 450 lbs.

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    I have a few questions:
    • Am I looking at the corrector weight? (sorry the photo is upside down and I can't figure out how to sort it)
    • Does that sound right?
    • Is there a class minimum weight?
    • Should I be worried about helm?

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118

    Corrector Weights

    Just after I posted last post with questions I found the thread on corrector weights. Most of my questions were answered there. Thanks! Still wondering if Commander owners who removed them like the change in performance?

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    714
    While I did in fact remove the added ballast form C147 I ended up replacing it with very close to the same weight in batteries for my elec. drive. And while the replacement weight is approx. 1 foot higher in the boat Destiny sails very very well. I have had her out in 30mph winds and she will settle in with her rail just in the water and hold there.


    I believe Mike who owns C227 took his added ballast out and did not replace it. Now I believe he has repowered with a Yanmar so you might try touching base with him.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118

    Cockpit Drain Seacock

    I finally got around to installing a proper shuts off for the cockpit drains. I should have done it last year before the repower but put it off instead. Of course last spring when I launched one of the hoses leaked and I had to haul her had replace both hoses for the season. The job is a lot trickier with the engine in place but I managed it anyhow. First thing I realized was that the angle of the hull prevented me from simply installing a seacock. It would run straight into the engine if I tried to locate it in the same spot as the old drain hole. Also it is important to align the fitting with the drain tubes under the cockpit floor. The solution was to cut away the old tube from the hull and replace it with a new threaded fiberglass fitting that is aligned correctly. I found some nice extra heavy duty fiberglass threaded couplings from a company that manufactures these type of fittings for applications where fiberglass pipes are used to conduct corrosive liquids. Think chemical factory. They are really heavy duty, carefully machined, provide maximum flow and are cheap.

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    To cut away the old tube I made a guide by using a hole saw to cut the correct sized hole in a piece of plywood. I then taped the plywood to the hull and cut around the old stub from the outside. The hull is so thick that once you get the hole saw started in the hull you can gradually guide the blade to cut in at an angle toward the upper drain stub and produce an oblong hole that fits the coupling closely.

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    Once the old stub is gone from the hull I used a 4" grinder to expose fresh glass round the hole on the inside of the boat. Next step is to align the tube in the hole so it pointed at the upper stub. I wedged in some shims on the inside of the boat and laid a fillet of polyester filler on the outside of the boat to hold the tube in place. I laid in an epoxy fillet around the tube then glassed the tube to the hull. After this was dry I cut the tube flush on the outside and filled and faired with epoxy.

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    I coated the fresh tabbing on the inside with epoxy paint and installed a threaded nipple, 1 1/2" bronze ball valve, a pipe to hose adapter and a 6" piece of hose. I can easily reach the valve from the access doors in the cockpit floor and the interior. It was a pain in the ass but worth the piece of mind.

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  12. #87
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118
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    Water Tank.
    I removed a very nice Monel water tank from under the v berth in the Gail Grace. I had no use for it and would rather have the storage space. I can't even guess what something like this would cost now. I had to break the brazing on the fill tube but otherwise it looks good. If anyone wants it I will pack it up and ship it - just pay the shipping.

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118

    Winter Projects

    Almost time to launch. I have a pretty long list of projects for this off season. I'm just about done. Here are a few highlights

    Remove outboard well
    Install cockpit scupper sea cocks
    Install new nav station with cooler
    Install all new electronics including:
    Autopilot
    AIS Transceiver
    Wind, speed & depth
    WIFI NMEA
    LED courtesy lighting
    LED lazzerete and engine compartment lights
    Ipad interfaced with WIFI NMEA string with charting, routing and instrument display capability

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  14. #89
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118

    Winch Pedestals

    Almost forgot - New winch pedestals. The old wood ones were clunky and were starting to split at the seams so I made new ones from 3/8" Aluminium. I had a local shop cut the pieces with a water jet including the Commander logo. Then I curved the upright piece with a press, welded the piecestogether and spent a couple of hours grinding and polishing. They are a little rough around the edges but are functional and an improvement over the wood blocks.

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  15. #90
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    118

    Father's Day 2017

    Grace of Gail Grace fame

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