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Thread: rudder bearing source

  1. #1
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    rudder bearing source

    Not only does Polymer Plastics (www.polymerplastics.com) have Delrin rod but have it in black AND will machine a rudder post bearing to the specs in the Manual for $53.25. FOB Reno.

    Now I've got to find the O-rings. Unless somebody knows a source they could post here?

  2. #2
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    Ebb
    Is it rubber o-rings that you desire? I have a whole box/case thingymajiggy full of them. Just let me know what size and I'll crack it open and try to find something that'll fit the bill. I suppose since I'm one of 'them' that have a whole lot of nothing under the post cap I should order one, maybe two of those bearings. Tony G.

  3. #3
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    rings of O

    hiya Capt. Tony.
    I'm unsure what the dimensions of the two O-rings are as I can't read it clear off the specs. And I found an O-ring site by google but gave up for the moment because I didn't find a match in their lists. Will get back to it when awake.

    3/32" seems right for thickness. The diameters must have to be pretty close as the rings won't stretch that good - the inside one against the shaft has to fit perfect.

    Didn't think to ask P. Plastics if they could supply them or knew a source, I was just trying to get the rod and the rep (Larry) emailed that they could make the bearing. Right away took em up on it. Didn't shop around. Don't have wife to argue money with. Ordered two.

    Will be prepared for 70 years of smooth sailing.

    On pg 168 of the Manual can you or can anybody explain the double numbers used in the drawing of the bearing that designate the two grooves?
    Last edited by ebb; 09-30-2002 at 11:00 PM.

  4. #4
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    looking for O-rings

    Polymer Plastics got the two black slick 'n sleek delrin bushing/bearings to me yesterday. If something so precisely machined can be a work of art these will entirely suffice. Beautiful. The specs are right out of the Association manual.

    O-rings required:
    Inside against the one inch rudder shaft 1" ID - 1.25" OD.

    Outside against the rudder tube 1.25" - 1.50" OD

    The grooves are nearly .18 inch wide. And .125 deep (i/8")

    But it ain't that simple. Being deprived of O-ring experience, commonsense tells me that the grooves should be pretty well occupied with rubber, what rubber? How these rings get squeezed is important. (There are material choices such as neoprene, viton and urethane. Whether they are available in small quantity is the question. You want rubber that is highly resistant to compression set and abrasion.) What's the rubber used in a cutlass bearing, I wonder?

    The O-rings in 338's original bearing are flat. Like they were never round. Very flat.

    Seems to me the o-ring against the shaft will have to be replaced regularly because it is constantly being exercised, worn. The rudder tube one just sits there.

    Tony, maybe I'll take you up on yer offer. Or better yet, did you get an assortment or kit? Might be a good thing to have. Where'd you get it, the assortment??? What's the material? Cheers. (looking at the website below, an assorment would be about 7000 pieces!!!!)

    __________________________________________________ ___________ www.allorings.com
    has a sizing chart for the O-rings they carry. My choice for the inside one would be: dash # -317. outside one: dash # -321. Anybody want to discuss these choices here, let's do it. There are information pages here on stretching, compressing, static and working rubber rings. And materials. Amaze your friends with yer O-ring trivia.
    Last edited by ebb; 10-30-2002 at 08:41 PM.

  5. #5
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    Kit No. OK311

    Ebb
    That's right! I've got one here in my hot little hands-A Nation O-Ring Service Set, kit No. OK 311. Don't know why, probably something I was building needed a little rubber cement and I got all carried away. Sometimes that happens. I forgot all about this thread! Your first reply was back at the begining of this month when I was in Racine lurking about the marinas trying to spot Theis. No luck but I did manage to find a triton wasting away on the hard. (did pick up an Ensign though-good deal too)
    Yeah, if you want rubber o-rings they're here. This thing starts 1/8" ID and 1/16" wall thickness and goes up to 1 3/4" ID with 3/16" wall thickness.
    The sizes you picked out are #'s 214 and 217 in Minnesota! 1"ID and 1 1/4" OD and 1 3/16" ID and 1 7/16" OD respectively. You can go(?) up or down in 1/16" increments and that's no excrement!
    I'm already envious, Ebb, those bushings must be keeping you up at night. Did they give you a job number or reference number in case some of us poor(frozen)lots would like to have one fasioned? The price seems right. (Just got our bid back a few days ago for a new bow pulpit and I still don't dare venture too far from the bathroom! Whew!) These rubber o-rings are just rubber o-rings no fancy schmancy stuff here. If you want to give some of them a try just let me know and I'll mail some off to you. And please, take pictures...lots of pictures......113 is under her winter tarp and I must now live vicariously through the rest of you for the next 5-6 months. So I'll put down the saw and pick up a pencil. So far I've accumulated a scrap book of ideas thick enough to fit out a 40 footer. Incurable dreamer am I

  6. #6
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    O sizes

    Capitan Tony:
    Minnisotan sizes 214 and 217 are also used as "Stat" number sizes in the Alloring sizing chart. The 200 group are 1/8' wide.

    So, the grooves in the bushing are 11/64" wide - not quite 3/16" . I'm thinking the 300 O-rings are the way to go if you can fit one by stretching it into the groove it's width will have decreased slightly making for a very snug fit.
    That logic works for the outer ring. And not having experimented with a whole lot of rubber rings - perhaps a slightly smaller (15/16" diameter X 3/16" wide) would be correct for the inner one. The rudder shaft squeezing the ring tightly into the groove.

    Anyway, doing this from scratch, I'm curious about the correct rubber and what's available to the sailing public.

    You're right tho in that this isn't really exact science. But wouldn't it be clever to have a handful of these rings so that you could pop new ones in every spring, say, like a new zinc or bottom. A nice tight slippery action tiller under yer arm.

    It isn't those sweet bearings keeping me up at night but a foxy new nutritionist at the foodstore. I wish SHE was keeping me up at night.
    Last edited by ebb; 11-02-2002 at 09:10 AM.

  7. #7
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    O rings revisited

    Choices for the rings are Polyurethane, Buna-N, EPDM, Silicone, Viton, Teflon AND Neoprene. Neoprene is resistant to compression set, tearing, abrasion, ozone, weathering, animal/vegetable oils, ammonia. It's ok with aliphatic & aromatic hydrocarbons (petroleum fuel oils) and toluene. It's no good with dilute acids & alkalies or synthetic lube like silicone grease or MEK.

    In case you want to lubricate yer rudder head with something beside crisco or vegie oil. Wonder if lithium grease is ok???

    I chose Neoprene #214 for the working side and #218 for the static side in the frp rudder tube. They are 1/8." Think the next size up, 3/16" would be too fat. Rings go on very easy but are sloppy in the grooves. I think this was intentional so that the rings have some space to squeeze into when working. Tho they don't squeeze all that much, just enough. Haven't mounted the rudder yet...

    Had to buy pkgs of 100, inexpensive. Be happy to send you a set or two if you mail me a stamped adressed envelope.
    Ebb Borregaard
    19310 Carriger Rd
    Sonoma CA95476
    Last edited by ebb; 08-07-2003 at 06:10 AM.

  8. #8
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    Ebb,

    Does this offer still stand? I forgot to remove the o-ring prior to stripping the shaft cover and not my o-ring is shot...

    A~

  9. #9
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    rico

    I'll have to find them in my jumble. But I know I kept a few sets.

    Let's make sure that you only need the O-rings.
    Bill, got most of them from me when he got the cache of sleeve bearings made for the Association. I'm almost certain that the bearing is offered at cost to members. And just as certain the inside and outside O-rings come with it.

    If you still have an old sleeve bearing in the rudder tube, there isn't a single argument against installing a slick new one that I can think of.

    If you are sure you just need the O-ring(s) of course I'll see if I can locate them. Offer stands.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
    Top of rudder tube repair idea.
    If I remember correct, the chromed cap is held on to the top of the rudder tube with set screws - and the top of the tube in 338 had a ragged history of failures of screws failing to hold. One of the problems of driving metal into fiberglass.
    To make the top of the tube under the cap like new again you can take the new sleeve bearing WITHOUT the O-rings in place and push it into the tube with a few layers of seranwrap gathered over the bearing. Plug it in wrapped in enough layers of film so it is snug. Then mix up a putty of epoxy, milled glass powder and fumed silica to smooth over the damage and remake the top of the tube.
    The plastic wrapped bearing is completely protected and should make a nice form to work the epoxy against and keep the inside of the tube smooth if holes go through. When the epoxy is hard, the sleeve pulls out (you have a ponytail of seranwrap) and the plastic peels off like magic.
    When ready to put the cap back on, mark the set-screw holes thru the cap with the cap in place using an awl (or 1/8" Vix bit) and then predrill a set-screw sized hole in the rudder tube for the screws to mate with. The cap is supposed to stay on when you screw them in. The holes should not go through the rudder tube, and should probably be less than an 1/8" deep. Careful!

    Then you have to remember next time that the set screws are there. Could get slightly longer ones that poke out a bit so you don't miss them. Should use stainless steel screws with Tef-gel.
    imco as always
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
    Rico, I found the box. I saved two sets of O-rings for the boat. Maybe Bill will let a set go to you?
    Also found the chromed cap and see that it has three set screws on its circumference. My rudder tube top has been repaired and I would go with the 1/4" size s.s screws 1/4" long. 5/16s would be better if available - the cap is not very thick (3/32") so we'll probably be sticking out just to make sure they have some thread. Somewhere around here I mentioned that you can find set-screws with heads. They would prevent over screwing into the softer fiberglass of the tube that the headless variety is guilty of. Maybe there is a nice 1/4" short stainless round-head machine-screw that would look good there? 3 of them.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
    LATER POST ADDITION:
    I'll finish the loop here. WM is not your source for fastenings, as you know. Their catalog lists no machine 316L screws or m. bronze screws (they do have 1/4" set screws). Neither does Hamilton. And it looks like Jamestown is following the crowd. (Jamestown makes a big deal of saying that 304 stainless is marine fastening metal. This is a blatant untruth. A three letter word. WM offering only 18-8* fastenings is the same thing They are NOT marine quality. Neither WM or the screws. You might like rust, so go for it.
    I've decided to have shortened round-head machine screws intead of set screws. Set screws often have pointy noses and I like the idea of a flat bottom in a tight fitting hole - less possibility of the cap loosening up imco.
    Set screws are tiny and get lost. Headed fastenings are not as neat but I won't be able to turn them in too far - and if one falls out I'll probably see it!
    Or feel it!

    BoltDepot.com does have silicon bronze round head machine screws in 1/4-20.
    You can buy them by the piece. The shortest is 1/2". You might think about including a split washer just in case the thread-lock doesn't hold.

    A way to get the exact length needed.
    Could drill a hole in some thin metal plate, insert the screw and cinch it up with a regular steel nut and washers - or not - for spacers. Then grind the screw down to the nut - hopefully the length we want - with the right-angle grinder. The length of the round-head machine set-screw is a total of what you have buried in the rudder tube - plus the cap thickness - plus the split washer - it'll probably take a few fittings - start long! I'll soften that part of the threads that are run into the fiberglass tube, like with a small file, less possible cutting of the plastic by the threads. I like bronze because it is a softer fastening and matches the cap material. And it's real salty.
    Yup, Basta, good luck.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________
    *18-8 is a 'bag' term. It is meant to cover the 300 series of stainless which might include 316 but also includes non-marine alloy WM is walmarting China for their stock. There are no controls over alloy formulations or practices or sources in China. You should read the invective they have garnered on some cruising forum sites over bad shackles from WM. I won't buy from them on principle. They are not looking out for me.
    Last edited by ebb; 11-29-2007 at 02:10 PM.

  10. #10
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    Ebb,

    Sorry for the delayed response; I've been on the 'road'. (job keeps getting in the way!)

    I have a brand new bearing (one I got from the association - via the PO)

    The O-ring I need is the one pictured. The one that fits inside the shaft cover (cap)... This o-ring is not one that is supplied with the Bearing, is it?

    ...well, this is the one I accidentally destroyed, and that I am trying to locate so-far unsuccessfully.

    I only have the broken old one, so my search has been limited to trial & error matching as I do not have specs, or a reliable way to measure the battered one... Do you happen to have the specs for it?

    If anyone is in need of one, I do have an extra chrome shaft cover I've secured... (as pictured).
    Attached Images  

  11. #11
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    rico,
    The inside O-ring IMCO is 1/8" diameter, 1 1/4" OD, 1" ID. Has to be an easy to get size. It is Dash #214 in the O-ring code. Bill has this size, I believe.

    I never completely figured out which rubber was best. The inside ring does all the work and probably would need to be replaced on a regular basis. I believe the most common O-rings are EPDM, followed by Buna-N (usually automotive), neoprene and polyurethane. Probably what's cheapest is most popular. The inside diameter of the O-ring is 1". The shaft is 1" The groove in the bearing is slightly shy of 1/8" deep. This makes the O-ring bump out a bit. And the rings are as hard as the heel on your wingtips. Shore A70. It'll be a tight fit. A softer one (Buna-N) might be easier to slip onto the shaft, but it'll probably wearout sooner.

    With the rudder shaft constantly turning against the O-ring. Pulling at it - I'd guess a tear resistant rubber is best. Don't believe EPDM is as good at that as maybe polyurethane, which may be more slippery. And some rubber is good at keeping its shape.

    I think there is an O-ring grade for working rings like the inside one and those that just sit passive providing a seal. I forget which ones we got. It possible that the ideal set up would have a different O-ring for the inside.

    Certainly think that keeping salt from crusting in the bearing and a little squirt of grease now and again would make the sleeve bearing rings happy. A 4oz barium base O-ring lube from McMCarr, $4.83. I would use an aerosol to try to shoot lube in, but have to watch that whatever is in the bomb is compatible with synthetic rubbers. NO silicone!

    O-rings are cheap, unless you decide you have to have Viton or FEP. One of which might actually be the longer lasting for our application. McMasterCarr can sell you bags of them - some cheap some pricey. If you plan to regularly changeout the inside O-ring you'll need a dental pick to lift it out of the groove. Most hardwares have a pack of 4 different tips available.

    Ask Bill to mail you the smaller ring. He must have plenty. You may have to email him on the Board here.
    Last edited by ebb; 12-05-2007 at 04:49 PM.

  12. #12
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    new rudder bearings in use

    Wouldn't it be great if anybody who got a new bearing

    would report back on how it is doing vis-a-vis the O-rings?


    With feed back, the Association could tailor the O'rings to the job
    they should be doing.

    If anybody has replaced an O-ring already on a new bearing because it has lost its set, flattened, or wore out,
    I'd be the one to take responsibility for that by making sure a better O-ring is available through the Association. Like to get it absolutely right. Want to know what you replaced it with and how that is working out?

    So everybody who got the new delrin bearing

    sign-in here and share what you think. YES?

  13. #13
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    Since the originals lasted up to 40 years . . . it may be a bit of a wait to get reports back . . .

  14. #14
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    EBB,

    From your reply;
    "The inside O-ring IMCO is 1/8" diameter, 1 1/4" OD, 1" ID. Has to be an easy to get size. It is Dash #214 in the O-ring code. Bill has this size, I believe."

    The O-ring I am looking for is the one pictured on the rightmost picture. The one that is INSIDE the shaft cover (Cap). It rests on a ridge close to the top of the cap. This is about 2" in diameter as it fits around the inside of the cap itself... This is different than the two that are related to the bearing itself. Would you have specs for that one?


    Here is my experience with th bearing so far:

    I replaced the original (where the shaft had worn ALMOST all the way through the bearing itself - let alone the O-ring...) and it has been wonderful in terms of improving the solid feel of the tiller / rudder. The play of the shaft inside the tube is completely eliminated. It analogous to getting a brand new suspension system on your old car... The bank for the buck in terms of feel ia hard to beat for this little part. If you do not have one of these in place you MUST get one from Bill tomorrow.

    After two years of use on the new one, I observed very little wear on the o-rings. None on the bearing. I keep all coated with a light layer of grease, and all works great.

    I took it all apart as I did not want to get any gelcoat on it, and managed to accidentally destroy the o-ring inside the shaft cover... hence my need to get a new one.

  15. #15
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    The last time the cap was off the shaft on #76, I don't recall there being an O ring. Not sure of the purpose it might serve in that location, but if it was me,I'd take the cap to the plumbing dept of the local hardware stare, locate the O ring box and pick one that fits . .

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