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Thread: EBB's PHOTO GALLERY THREAD

  1. #211
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    Sep 2004
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    Concord, CA
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    6
    Eb,
    Looking at the hutch..... is possible to mount the blocks on the outer sides of the hutch since it is made fast and looks strong...As far as I can would isee the far end of the boat might be too far aft to mount the controls of blocks or a raised traveler....The lines would come up at an angle and could rub the hutch.....I once looked hard at installing the traveler on my older Ariel in the cockpit...about 12 inches back from the drop boards.....I finally decided it would be too busy in close when working the sheets....As far as the vang goes. I use it to steady the down wind and reaching legs....keeps steady pressure and dosen't rise and fall like line vangs....Going up wind it can help flatten the main...When its light I keep it loose....I would like to visit some day to see the boat...Joe

  2. #212
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    3,549

    travelor

    Thanks, Joe,
    Glad to show you the boat. Could use your input. See your 'private message.'

    Was wondering if the rigid vang performs some of the functions of the standard travelor in the cockpit making it possible to go back to the original 3-block mainsheet. I'm not predjudiced against any right-on solution. It's not hard to 'see' it in stainless steel tube.

    Mike's Contessa link above has another guy's installation using tube - tho not as impressive as the angles and wood one it looks lighter and the idea could be borrowed to get the blocks and/or travelor off the deck and out of the cockpit. If the lead to the boom was OK. ????
    Last edited by ebb; 06-28-2005 at 07:19 AM.

  3. #213
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    Jul 2004
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    Winyah Bay, SC
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    576
    Ebb -

    Dropped back into here in search of under-cockpit quarterberth info. Had to change my Thread View settings to be able to find your thread.

    Over 100 days since an update. Tony is winning (you said so yourself). What's going on out there at the Borregaard Skunkworks?

    Maybe you can bribe Bill with some fresh wine to get him to post some new photos. I'll send the cheese and crackers if some interior shots can be posted.
    Last edited by epiphany; 10-08-2005 at 10:58 AM.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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  4. #214
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    Sep 2001
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    traveller again

    Many race boats have the traveller down low across the middle of the cockpit (I would hate that, a real shin banger)

    But, how about across the cockpit seats at the very end in front of the hutch?
    Attached Images  

  5. #215
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    Apr 2004
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    Pensacola, FL
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    Tell you what ebb,

    Seems like a good place for the traveler, but for the mainsheet.

    I it seems to me like it would spend an awful lot of time right in the middle of things, or forced to be bent arond the sides of the cabin top.

    Let me go out and sail the boat, (it is 72f, blowing about 12) I will tie a line around the boom and hang it down to try to picture it and get back to you.


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  6. #216
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    3,549
    wha..? w h a a? oh, here aye is.
    C'amos, C'pete, Thanks for the input and the research.

    I see now a seatback high tube rail just outside the coamings. designed in conjunction with the 'breakwaters' at the front of the coamings. They would terminate at the hutch and would have heavy weather sunbrella panels for wind and water protection. The construction back there at the hutch could include a tube traveler base across the end of the cockpit at a higher level. If I did decide for that I'd probably set it exactly over the end of the cockpit with a protecting handhold rail in front of it, the hand rail over the seats. The height is a trial and error mockup situation because you'd be real careful hair and ears and fingers were not danger. The taller and more elaborate the structure, the more weight.

    A hand hold at the end of the cockpit is in itself much desireable!
    Wonder how many fingers and toes are put in jeopardy with in or end cockpit travelor systems? Then again is the traveler an absolute?

    I've kidded myself about how much of a jungle gym is necessary on the aft end of 338. Me and 338 are well into a weight issue! I know we too small for wind generators and radar towers and whatever. If the travelor/handhold piece still allowed the OB to be craned out of the well, you could design the stern rail out of the picture. Don't know about the solar panels, when I get to it will most likely go for flexible and a semi-bimini type mount. ???

    One duck is tied to the next duck and the next.

    In the beginning I reinforced the foward corners of the seats (icebox removed) thinking an arch could be put over the cockpit there, anchored on the seats, perhaps part of the dodger. That may become an option again because the boom is raised now, the arch could be higher up and access to the companionway more dignified. Don't believe our OE boom can be converted to mid-boom sheeting. I like the loosefoot sail, so it HAS to be end-boom sheeting.

    How's that sheet lead look?

  7. #217
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    Apr 2004
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    Pensacola, FL
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    722

    Talking Too funny

    Ebb,

    Somehow I read your post, and got the idea you were toying with the idea of going FORWARD with the traveler!

    Many race boats have the traveller down low across the middle of the cockpit (I would hate that, a real shin banger)

    But, how about across the cockpit seats at the very end in front of the hutch?
    I guess I read 'hatch' (thinking of the companionway hatch) where you wrote hutch.

    So I made up a line to the boom while I was sailing around (on a perfectly beautiful afternoon) just aft the companionway, and then laid a boat hook across the forward end of the cockpit. The irea seemed manageable, only real problem I saw was that you would not be able to simple leave the traveler 'centered' as it would make it difficult to go below (but not impossible).

    Maybe I should not even have admitted looking into this, since it was all based on an understanding. I will say that misunderstanding or not I think I would rather have this set up then the one pictured above.


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  8. #218
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,549

    Thumbs up boom travelor placement conundrum

    Hey Craig, envy your sail this Sunday, yes, I do.

    Everytime I alter something it generates a domino effect.
    Don't recall anyubody here objecting to a midboom sheeting arrangement. Caution comes from me from what I've read. Do believe it would mean a stiffer boom to take the three bails and blocks. Not there yet!

    As finding a place for a travelor becomes more serious, the over the c'way becomes more an alternative again. Another addition to 338 will be a hard dodger. But at the moment it's figuring out if a hard permanent windscreen with tube and fabric pram hood behind it is feasible. The top of the screen would be above the forward end of the opening and the hood would be folded forward to the windscreen allowing good access below. My lean is toward a well rounded dodger, front and top, that won't include a wide travelor as part of it, as I have seen. It would be great to get two for the price of one if they could be structurally combined. But it's not going to happen. I've witnessed that a cockpit wide travelor is necessary for effective boom placement and depowering.



    So if this travelor is somewhere over the bridge deck - because the further back on the boom the block are the less force needed to sheet - it would be separate from the hood and would be designed to be high enough to get below without contortion. It could be above the dodger when the dodger was depolyed and designed in such a way as to be grabbable for going on deck and getting into the cockpit. If boats can go around without any rear ends and have their travelor in a slot under the cockpit deck than why not go contrare somewhere above the companionway. Hunters do it in the stern. Maybe a taller arch over the bridge deck is possible with something near cocpit width???? OH boy.... what a pickle.

    [In the middle of the night I 'saw' the travelor arch looking like a boom gallows with tube legs coming up from outside the coamings at the end of the dodger. Now, more awake, this arch thing is easy to move back and forth ...in the mind. And there it is over the back end of the cockpit again!!!]

    Think that the tails of the travelor sheets would be better away from the tiller and the OB - better up front with the halyards reefers cunningham and vang ends, and down hauls. Anybody with me on this visualization?

    Thanks for the test! I guess I got myself into this, again. "It is all in how you go from one mistake to the next." Let's hope awl ebb goes sortof gracefully and with more speed toward the better compromise.
    Last edited by ebb; 10-20-2005 at 07:47 AM.

  9. #219
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    39

    PVC Water Tubes

    Ebb,
    Ran across these Poly Vinyl Chloride cylindrical water tubes...thought they might fit in your custom tank boxes up forward.

    http://www.western-marine.com/page123.htm

    Chris

  10. #220
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,549
    Might have run into Western Marine myself befor. Then discovered these Western Marines is in Western New Zealand or Southern Ireland. OUTther somere.

    One of the best if not THE best online northern hemisphere hardware stores is MacMaster Carr. Try em out, takes 15 minutes to comprehend their unique but very useful catalog system.

    In fact the choices of possible tank/system hose, tube and fittings on that site (including vinyl, pvc) are incredible but usually limited by how much money you want to spend.

    I have wished we could talk about it on a thread but didn't think, as I often find out, anybody would be interested.

    I'm still wondering what the best is - and what the second & third choices would be.
    Ideal plumbing layout,
    Best hand pumps,
    Best electric pump,
    Best plumbing material?

    (I know I have researched every 'through bulkhead' ie thru-tank fitting on the net. Never have found one that would really work well with glassed in place frp tanks. They are large flange fittings that depend on a rubber washer for the seal - which makes it a maintenance item. The best plastic ones imco are made by Hayward. Because I wanted tanks that would drain into the system and tend to self clean I've ended up epoxying pvc pipe thru tank as low as I could get it. Even got some s.s. pipe nipples to make thru-tanks, but felt, perhaps erroneously, that I'd get a better glue-in with plastic to plastic. Obviously would be best to put in a replacable thru-tank. Make sure trhere is an access plate into the tank over any thru-tank. Or design tank so you draw liquid out of the top.....etc.....etc.)
    Last edited by ebb; 02-03-2006 at 08:08 AM.

  11. #221
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
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    722
    Ebb,

    Just read through this thread again, looking at your hatch-mounting-frame-building methods. Think my Bomar hatch will stay in it's box for a while longer.....


    Would love to see an update of your progress.

    Thanks,


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  12. #222
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Really not so difficult. There must be 10 ways to do it.
    Why not put the question out on a new thread to get some
    responses not related to this thread. Mike Goodwin, Frank
    Durant, for instance, probably know and recommend a far simpler
    method than what ebb came up with. You betcha.

    What's Tony G. up to these days???

    OK, snake with legs here:
    It's been awhile since those Bomars (pg 10 136-7-8) were messed with, and they are not even bolted in yet!
    Believe I had to cut the old hatch coaming off - without making the hole larger, and grinded it fair to the camber. Then laid out the larger hole my Bomar required. I knew what wood I had to use for the 'lining' (coaming?) for the Bomar and cut a hole that the wood would line up with on the inside of the Bomar flange. Made sure I cut the hole square by adjusting the foot of the jigsaw (or bluetape on a stirring stick). The liner is essentially a 90 degree box in the hole. So you can temp screw the box together. Ground off the gelcoat out a couple inches all round.

    Decided on a minor forward tilt. Slightly higher on the aft side. Don't know why. If you cut the liner tight enough (force fit) just lay the Bomar (took the top off) on the pieces and tap them til you're satisfied, parallel with the deck, tilted, whatever. Doublesided carpet tape may work too. Can also hold the liner (box or pieces) by screwing into the balsacore, but you'd have to make these holes disappear later.

    Cut the bottom of the liner to close to the finished depth and forward curve and aft curve (they are different.) Use a suitably sized little block of wood (width of proposed trim) or a compass to scribe. It would help if you have a finished smooth surface on the roof inside.

    The Bomar flange is 1 1/2" wide. The liner in 338 is 1/2". That allows ample solid material for the bolts that fasten the hatch (the filler is 1" wide) - bolts go round the outside of the flange about 1/2" in. The material in the photos is 3/4" thick. With that thickness it's obvious I intended to recess the nuts. If the result is too 'busy', a thin finishing strip might go over them. Or some resilient peel and stick rubber. Could let the liner run proud and fit in thinner trim for the bolts. That way there may be some protection for the top of the head.

    The trim around the hole will take some fitting and as an option be held in place with screws thru the liner into the edges if thick enough. Small screws were used as the plugs are are only 1/4". This is the trim that the bolts from the Bomar will come thru. The trim will then be held quite securely! You will have to make a paper pattern to create radius trim pieces on a bandsaw out of thicker stock for the foward and aft. An oscillating drum sander is very helpful too. Would do it that way (skinny trim) if I did it again because it would help the hatch look smaller and more tidy and create a couple pleasing shadow lines. But you don't have to do this til later. Or, you can finish off the inside pieces up to the final sanding. depending on your bedding choice, you can positively support the trim pieces without screws with spring battens from the V-berth or sole. Until you are ready for bedding compound and final Bomar instal.)

    You have to prepare and sand the liner to its finished shape. Because you won't be able to remove it after the next stage. No reason that whole hatch support couldn't be wood. However if you decide on an all wood frame under the Bomar it probably would have to be taller off the deck. The unconventional way described here gets the hatch as close to the deck as possible. The fronts of the Bomars sit on the deck.

    Now, a perhaps controversial 'cheat'. Blue tape off the narrow outside edges of the Bomar bottom frame very very carefully. But befor that apply 2sided fiberglass carpet tape to its bottom - trace & cut it with the utility blade to the exact outside profile leaving the peeler strip on (epoxy doesn't stick to it - however mylar is a better, smoother, flatter release surface and it is recommend here.) Place it taped up right on the liner. Center the inside edges on the liner. Now's the time to get the liner flat and square if you need to (low angle plane.) Then firmly clamp the prepared frame to the liner.

    Fill the space under the frame with mishmash.
    Make sure the wood in there is juiced and primed and load in a mix of cabosil, glass fibers and epoxy. But don't fill quite all the way out to the edge {'the edge' means your edge, ie you might want to lean it way out on the bottom...] at the bottom! After this is set you can take your form off (the Bomar bottom frame) and check how well you did. But you don't HAVE to move it yet, ok? Might be better to leave it alone, because you may have to mask it over again.
    Fill any voids (can be done later). Make sure your wood to epoxy joint is seamless. You hopefully have great confidence in the epoxy you use! No leaks will happen at this join! You are molding and bonding to the deck. And that part of the liner that sticks up out of hole. [Because the wood can expand and contract on all its other sides the epoxy/wood joint should never open up imho. In the final install you will be bedding the frame in polysulfide (no doubt) and the fastenings are going thru the epoxy buildup - SO the wood is under no stress!!!]

    Clamp the frame back in place and fill out to the edge with filleting mix (epoxy and fumed silica.)* Always prime the surface first with plain epoxy and blot or wipe away the excess. Add universal color (white, like gelcoat, is good) if you wish. Here you decide how to hold your spatula blade. I like a little splay outward to this riser. A steady hand. The rounded corners are a butch. But once it's set, take off the form again and with clothbacked sandpaper carpet-taped to a piece of plywood sand away until the slope and surface are pretty smooth and shapely. Mostly. This filleting stuff can get pretty hard. Keep the deck surround pristine as well. This way you can shape to your heart's content and your muscle's burn. Get those corners all the same (you can slice with a sharp chisel if the plastic's not totally set) even if the slope is not quite like the straight runs. You're 'trueing' up the hardened goop for the next ( easier) stage:

    Clamp the rig back on and fill and shape with easy sanding fairing mix. (WS 407 and laminating epoxy.) The smoother the surface is - and thinner the last passes of fairing compound are - the more finesse you gain.

    [Have since, on 338, filleted (rounded) the join at the deck you see in the photo and botched it - but with fairing mix its easy to sand and shape till it's smooth and even. A piece of sandpaper around a dowel is perfect here.]



    __________________________________________________ ______________________________
    * FILLETING MIX -when you mix 2-part epoxy and fumed silica together you get a kind of gel.
    You experiment to find out how stiff or loose is good for you. When you prime your work with plain 2-part liquid you create the bond to the surface you form the gel to. I brush the liquid on with a brush then blot and wipe the surface 'dry' with paper towels.
    If you don't the liquid left behind will combine with your gel and change its consistency, making it looser. It then can sag and fall out of the shape you want. Filleting mix is structural. Gets very hard and difficult to remove material from when shaping after it's set.

    FAIRING MIX - is your laminating epoxy mixed with West System's 407 powder. It will become a paste. It becomes a hard but relatively easy material to sand. It's the brown stuff 338 has all over the outside of the topsides in the photos. It becomes a hard surface that can be feathered thin and sands easy. That is why in building up this pad under the Bomar frame you want to leave sanding room so you can fair it even and smooth.

    MISHMASH (not my word) is 2-part mixed with chopped fiberglass and fumed silica. It is structural and is a void filler. It is hairy and hard when set, horrible to grind and sand. The proportions you experiment with, but you don't mix in too much glass. It's there to keep the mass from becoming too brittle, muscle fiber. In the above deck build up, you tuck it in under the taped frame to avoid dealing with it again!!!
    Sure hope some of this makes sense......
    Last edited by ebb; 06-22-2006 at 07:06 AM.

  13. #223
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    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
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    Thumbs up Thanks for the break down Ebb

    I have read it three time now, and I think it is getting more clear. Sounds like being a master epoxy craftsman makes this easier... That is ok, I have got plenty of sandpaper.


    Thanks for the break down Ebb, I'll be sure to post the results when I di it.


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  14. #224
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
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    "external Ballast"

    Just finished a photo shoot at Ebb's boat and found this example of "encapsulated" lead ballast lying next to his boat . . . At first I thought he might have started a new project . . .
    Attached Images  

  15. #225
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    Orinda, California
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    "external ballast"

    Ebb replies: "Bill, you don't know this: but I removed the ballast from 338 to make up for all the weight I've added up top."

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