Alternative Mount for Outboard

[mbd]

I've been mulling this over since someone posted on the SS23 Forum a while back. Then a boat was recently put up for sale with the same setup. The pics and fabrications are from Ballentine's Boat Shop. Whether they created the design or are just installing them, I don't know. But I do think it is very elegant setup.

Here's the webpage: < Ballentine's Boat Shop >

And the pics:







My initial concern is that the freeboard on our boats would be in issue, although it looks like the design could easily accommodate a lower mounting bracket for the OB. And it would be nice to be able to mount it from either side too...

So, my though process over the years has gone from: "must have an inboard", to "an electric inboard would be really nice", to "an OB in a well is a decent compromise", to "hanging an OB off the stern with a temporary bracket like a CD Typhoon would be OK", to this. This setup seems like a really good all around compromise, and about as close as you can get to engine-less sailing with an engine.

[ebb]

Nice setup! Great pix!

Brings to mind Yves Gelinas' off the port-side OB on his Alberg 30, Jean-Du-Sud.
He solved the freeboard issue by mounting his OB on a hinged spar.
He circumnavigated, but don't know if he did so with this rig.

But it was his 'hinge' idea that really got my attention.
I think it was on a spar or pole of some sort.....
which means also that he could raise the OB out of the water and get it easier to handle

Wouldn't need all that with the Torgeedo in your photos.
What's it weigh, 15#? [40#]

For simplicity, short runs and quiet water, electric has it ALL over gas!!!


And Ballentines did a great job making their 5 star mount instantly removable!
Imagine coming into your berth in a marina....

[mbd]

Thanks for the input Ebb. A quick Google search of "Yves Gelinas 30' Alberg Jean-Du-Sud" yielded his thinking and a very good description of his setup on CapeHorn.com here: < Re-powering Jean-du-Sud >

[ebb]

Thanks Mike.

Reading Gelinas' reasoning, almost nearly positively convinces me that littlegull's 110lb Yamaha has to go!
That weight in an Ariel - even thru the designated well - is in the wrong place for blue water.
Yves mentions another point:
even tho I've waterproofed the living hell out of the stern, it is a volume that could fill with water (64 lbs cu ft) even for a short time.
Very dangerous short time.
Better to seal off the well and waterproof the lazarette - A338 has a lazahouse, but easily could be be buttoned up - creating extra bouyancy.
Very necessary offshore security.


If you took Yves' idea and created a universal joint on the rail to control the spar ('crank' Yves calls it) and give it more than an up-down capability....
it could - with a Torgeedo - be easily (and quicker than you can say Ballentines)
lifted out of the water and tucked out of the way on the side of the push-pit. Without removing the OB from its mount.
Raised out of the way - and lowered - with little fuss.
Yves had a way of controling the crank at the water end because of the thrust produced by his 9.9..
For the moment I can't 'see' exactly what he did. But there must be a limiter or vang controlling the OB pole's movement both up and down and sideways.
Be easy with a lighter electric OB.

Thinking about it......!

[part of the thinking is about the cost. Motor, 24V li-mag battery(s), solar panel, controllers & readouts all German engineering, etc. Probably 6,000 to $7,000 dollars]

[mbd]

Yves' setup seems like it would put the OB in a hard to reach location. On the other hand, perhaps the Ballentine bracket could do double-duty as a mount for a boarding ladder as well?

Over at Defender, the "Torqeedo 6 Hp 24 Volt Electric Motor with a 29.3 inch shaft" weighs in at 38.6 lbs and about $3200 when you add it to your shopping cart. It looks like it's got a "multifunction display (battery charge, range, speed, current input power)". There are a lot of variations, with and without tillers, some which say "batteries NOT included". They also sell a solar panel too.

[Bill]

Do you really want to ride "side saddle?" IMHO, out on the deep blue sea under sail, that thing hanging there could be a real safety problem, especially when the weather gets nasty. If you plan on removing the ob and stowing it, then you're back to the engine in the well situation -- you gotta lift that thing off the mount and put it someplace. BTW, Zoltan sailed over half way around the world in a "stock" Commander with the ob option, but not "side saddle." Alberg's design was for inboard auxiliary power, which to me is the better way to go (especially with the small Diesel engines available today).

[ebb]

In a usual too quick way scanned the Gelinas site.
He seems to have coastal cruised with a side saddle 9.9 OB
which would make it, what 20-30 years ago?
60-75lb 2 stoke. Very ungainly and certainly not something an Ariel/Commander would consider.

But disagree that it would be hard to get to, as it would house at the corner of the pushpit.
Could even run sweetwater thru the OB in that position.
OB's are getting lighter these days, including two strokes. So it could be done, imco, with a smaller and more handy machine.
But the right sized OB cranked up above the rail as Gelinas shows in a photo on Mike's blue-line,
it won't be in the way of berthing an Ariel in a marina, imco.
If the spar/crank had a universal joint where attacht at the rail, it'd be no trick at all to swing the OB out onto the dock and get a good hand on it. Gelinas used a 4-part handy billy to control his OB. If practiced enough times it would become second nature to get it out of (or in) the water.
Not any more difficult than deploying or housing a set of oars, for instance.

Yves didn't mention the controls, starting, choking, controlling the gas speed and the dangling gas hose.
The motor would get doused a lot and maintenance become a problem.
I have a problem with ethanol gas on board with all its problems in the tank and filters,
breathing fumes, raw & exhaust,
dealing with noise and vibration,
and built-in paranoia of breakdowns and inability to fix the 4 stroke.


Website hype has the 2011/2012 super expensive, high tech Torgeedo impervious to corrosion.
They have a video of the unit being drowned, then start up running while dripping wet.
[How come they didn't show it running under water?]
Jamestown testimonials have some party-poopers complaining of electrical problems. Pretty serious if true since that's the game.

The system doesn't like lead-acid. The reason is: that you can't take your AGM's below 50%. You can with L-M bats.
SO you have to companion the OB with their super-efficient lithium-magnesium batteries. Minimum ONE unit with the 24V Torgeedo's.
The Torgeedo with the battery on it's head is meant for your dinghy. Day sailing.... assume that battery is taken home for charging.
See no problem putting any new generation Torgeedo on a sidespar. If indeed waterproof, seems it's made for the job.

Bouyancy is a big problem in a boat that sinks when water gets inside.
Gelinas created sealed bulkheads is his Alberg 30. Baldwin altered lockers and furniture in his Triton to keep ahead of a disaster.
Am considering sealing the OB WELL in A338 and creating a vertical waterproof hatch at the end of the cockpit.
Later - got some other stuff to do first !!!

I don't think the 24V Torgeedo does enough for an A/C for the money. Need to look into the 4.0 48V versions for a displacement sailboat. More power, more thrust. Boats 28' and larger can afford a nice diesel and have the engine separated from the accomodation. The Torgeedo market at the moment still is pontoon boats, weekend fishing, and day sailers.


It sure looks like the Balletine invention makes it easy to reach over and unhook the whole mount & motor in a trice.
If there was a place to put the combo temporarily in the cockpit, hook the fenders over and save that Awlgrip job on the hull.

[mbd]

Here's what Sailor-Scott says about his Torquedo with the Ballentine setup over on the Plastic-Classics forum:

As for the Torqeedo, I use the travel 1003 long shaft which came with a 500w battery. Bear in mind my boat displaces 7200lbs, so I'm asking a lot from the motor. I knew that ahead of time but didn't want to go to the next size up which would have required me to carry two large batteries and figure out a way to keep them charged. When the wind dies the motor will move me at about 2.5-3.5 knots and still give me about 5 or 6 miles (nautical) range. I can go faster but the battery will deplete much more rapidly. On the motors tiller is a built in GPS giving info on watts use, distance remaining, time remaining, and speed over the ground. I like the motor and the fact I don't have to carry gasoline. Once back on my mooring I take the battery home and charge it for it's next use. The motor won't get me home if wind and tide are against me (I tried that to see what would happen) but of course if there's wind I don't need the motor...

And his Blog (with pics) where he's posted the boat. (Pretty!!)

http://international-one-design.blogspot.com/



PS. That model comes in at just under $2K from Defender. From the Torquedo site here: Spare battery $600, Plug and play 45W solar charger $1000, and a remote throttle for $200

[ebb]

Mike, Now THAT'S a place to visit!

John Vigor wrote a book once where he priced what stuff would cost in beers.
A nav light would cost 5 beers, can't remember what the $ equivalent of beer was.
Cost in Ariels:

If a ready to sail Ariel costs $5,000.....

and a 48V Torgeedo* with all the bells & whistles costs TWO Ariels.....

then that gorgeous refurbished "Gentleman's Day Sailor" costs..... 18 Ariels!



My current $10 6pac ale would translate to 54,216 beers for the day sailor - and 6,807 for the 4.0
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
* 48V TORGEEDO PR:
"the new generation tiller control Cruise 4.0 T gets motorboats on the plane and propels yachts up to 4 tons comfortably out of the harbor."
4.0 R puts the controls remotely in the cockpit, with the same readouts (incl a GPS) as on the tiller version. Advertised as a 9.9hp gas equivalent.
Jamestown ("We are the Torgeedo OB experts") lists the new 4.0 with or without tiller at $3799.00 to $3849.00. NOT a deal. Don't know if a special thrust propeller is needed for displacement hull as we have for gas OBs.
Jamestown does not list the 48V lithium-manganese battery bank needed (at least two easy to handle 110lb units) nor their solar charger.

Using Mike's Torgeedo blue line, EACH 'competively priced' 25V battery is $3250.
The $1000 charger can be hooked up and charging while the motor is in use.
There is a PR video showing a sailboat being backed into a marina slip.
The motor is then reversed to forward so as to stop the boat from hitting the dock.... So it does have that important function.
How much more an owner can expect, than propelling an Ariel "comfortably out of the harbor," remains to be seen.
However, even if this more powerful set up will work with an Alberg displacement hull, it is beyond considering because of its red-faced pricing.
$11,300 minimum, befor shipping. MY my my, who's buying ?
Easy to see why the Torgeedo website and Jamestown are so uncomfortable in stating what a comfortable system would really cost!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
http://www.nestawayboats.com/page36.htm
Here is a short but informative intro into the new generation of 48V Cruise T (or Cruise R for the remote setup) models of the Torgeedo. Imco these more powerful engines are necessary to control our full displacement hulls. Even then it might still be a stretch. The Brit Nestaway site is also fun to check out, with a wealth of info on tenders. They even sell US Porta-Botes - with a more ballanced presentation than Porta-Bote US.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
Just wondering:
Is anybody here considering this unique and honking Torgeedo for their boat? What is your cut off price for the system?
What would tug at your wallet? Better heads would sway mine!!! What do you think is the right price?

[Reality Check: Currently the best rated gas OB on the market is Tohatsu
http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Tohat...9-8A3EFUL.html
These folks will FREE ship a 2013 -25" long shaft - 92.6lb - 9.8hp - electric start - two cylinder 4 stroke to your door for $2209.99.
Or a 90.4lb 8hp for $1899.99. Add in the good ole gas price factor, and it still looks..... not bad.....about 1/5-1/6 the buy price of electric.]
Have to go into Owners Manual to read that these OB's are NOT ethanol/methanol (read, solvent) tolerant above 10%.
Aye can't trust corporate oil to stay within any % levels over time - at any pump.

The cost of owning a gas OB constantly rises burning unfashionable, untrustworthy and expensive liquids.
$$$$ Torgeedo batteries have to be replaced eventually: 8 to 10years? Figure an extra $1000 per year replacement cost for the Torgeedo system.
Over time can the two systems balance out their costs?

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2013!

[epiphany]

Yves mentioned thinking of a stern-mounted motor, but it would be in the way of his vane - thus, the side mount. If you mount a motor on our stern, you pretty much have to use on of these to reach the water:


http://tinyurl.com/b7h9uds

But then there is crane hanging off the stern all the time, though there is these which would make that easily removable:


http://tinyurl.com/a7easwe

I have one of the (@top) motor brackets, and am giving serious thought to trying it that adapter. While my 6hp Merc has only done me right, I detest the weight and size of the thing - heavy as all get out (~58#'s or so, IIRC), and with the 25" extra long shaft it pretty much fills the laz when stowed there. Once spring and warmer weather and a clean bottom arrive, I intend to drop my 2.5hp Suzuki dinghy motor (~27#'s) into the well and see how well it pushes the boat. I am not expecting miracles; just trying to avoid rowing in calmish weather/slack water. If it'll do that, then it would be worth trying the adapter/bracket combo as being just a step above a yulow/rowing, while as minimalistic as possible in the "screaming dinosaur juice" department.

I think I will be an old man by the time that electric becomes a viable, cost-effective solution for propulsion. A shame, that... Way too heavy what with batteries, and WAY out of line, expense-wise.

I wonder if there is such a thing as a "custom prop maker" who could produce a high-thrust, big diameter wheel for the 2-3hp o/b class of motors, a la Seagull. Then (short of re-gearing the foot) it would be a matter of adjusting fuel mix and spark plug to keep the lil motor happy at a different RPM range than how it is designed to run from the OEM (high speed dinghy pusher), and be the best of what is possible for now, it seems...

[epiphany]

Thought exercise: How much does a small PWC engine weigh? How hard would it be to plumb it, if it were mounted where the old A4 resided? It would have much less drag (an inlet or two and an outlet, vs prop and shaft/foot), and the thrust/weight ratio is much higher than most diesels and prolly the A4 itself, and is a relatively compact design. I have seen them retrofitted to fishing boats, where they outperform o/b's of similar hp... Reversing would be an issue.

It would make an interesting, and I'd bet effective, project, but is way too much fr me to tackle at this stage.

Edit: A quick look on Craigslist shows used PWC's selling for $1k. Cut the motor out, and glass it back into your Ariel, a couple of thru-hulls...

[ebb]

HNY Kurt!
Haven't heard of a PWC, in fact not in enuf to even find what the letters stand for.
Know it's about remanufactured engines. Finding a YouTube on the subject, it looks like it puts people to work
and gets a green star for recycling.

But aye can't live with a bloody dinosauer in the cabin. Altho a PWC diesel that ran on used deep-fry might be an exception! Yah-sure!
Even with modern smaller and lighter inboards and all the accoutrements including fuel storage needed, the weight imco would be about equal with a 4 to 6 battery electric motor support system.

I think wrestling with the side saddle idea is a good exercise. With a light weight OB and some practice it might even become acceptable for slipping into a slip. No pun.
Out on the wide part of the boat, like we see on the IOD, it is a vulnerable position for the cheat to be in.
But I believe somebody could come with an OB furler of some sort.
The problem comes with remote controls in the side saddle postion. Same problem with that spring loaded OB mount off the stern of our A/C.

No problem with a 45lb 4.0 T. Really is too bad that Torgeedo went with high tech & punishing prices aimed at the poor struggling middle class market.
They must be struggling themselves, nobody can afford their product. They should have taken a break-even path on pricing and gone for volume sales to recover research & development cost. There is a PR announcement that they have gotten Robert Bosch Venture Capital to buy into the company....so maybe they have the money now to come up with a reasonably priced model.
Maybe this is an opportunity for Harbor Freight to come up with a $999 electric OB & 24V Lithium battery!

Probably the cut off weight for a side arm is around 50lbs?
As aye imagine, it would be on a hinged spar ala Gelinas, able to be quickly raised, and tucked closely into the puish-pit at the stern quarter.
So you don't tear it off coming into your slip..... and it's raised (or lowered) in a matter of seconds.
It can be done, but somebuddy has to make it practical.


We are in changing times. Going green is difficult. It's new thinking. We hope the market comes up with better soluitions, but seldom does. Torgeedo has to lower its prices and offer an engine than will run off regular lead acid batteries - so bubba will buy it.
Have an image of small boats everywhere in the world powered with an OB and a gas can. No stretch to imagine a funky work boat on the Amazon with an electric motor and a couple funky batteries in a box with a solarpanel lid. Right?

[epiphany]

Oops, my bad there, ebb!

"PWC" is an acronym for 'Personal Water Craft'. You know - "water roaches", jetskis/waverunners - yep, those things. But they do have pretty incredible power plant setups, size per horsepower at least.

[ebb]

Kurt,
I have problems with ideas 'occuring' to me, it's annoying....
But a mechanically minded young gen might pick up a battery out of a wrecked Prius for $400
and run an over-priced Torgeedo with that.

Prius bats have a great rep. And they only weigh 100lbs.


Isn't an Ariel - or even a Commander - a Personal Water Craft???
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
What really would be interesting is for someone to come up with a compleatly waterproof electric out board
IN A TUBE - like an aluminum mast tube. Or new generation plastic 5"D tube. Electric oar. Motor stick.

It would have only the prop sticking out the end.
It would be different from anything else on the market.
Could be done with electric. Remote ontrols & batteries, and the tube mounted off side saddle,
or over or even thru the transom.
I see it as a sleek muti-purpose easy to handle portable.
All the viewer would see is a shiney tube hanging at an angle from the sheer of the boat.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

LATER EDIT [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzfYAeXTOUk Electric Outboard first in water test
Thinking outside the case, 'modular' parts inside the see-thru acrylic case could be stacked inline on top of the drive.
Aye image no angle drive for the prop, just a strate shot......Inventors' concern is how hot the unit gets.
The yet-to-exist Yulohdo Tube OB could be housed in aluminum tube inside plastic outer tube
with seawater circulated between the tubes to cool rotors & windings
Might be a sweetwater closed loop system to offset corrosion.
The inside metal tube could be modularized into sections that seal together with O-ring gaskets.
Imco it's certainly doable. Thanks to Inertia Labs for sharing!]

Anybody have some spare venture capital?
Retail it for less than $2,000.
Toyota supplies the battery.
SolbianFlex Solar Panels do the charging.

Maybe name it YULOH-DO (for: single mechanical oar)

[epiphany]

Ebb -

Have Ye heard of Kickstarter.com?

(this is 1/2 or maybe even 3/4 of a post - .5 serious, .5 wondering, and for goood measure, .5 thinking hard...