The Allied Seawind II , designed by Tom Gilmer , has dual headstays , side by side .
You will need to beef up the masthead crane and go to a heavier backstay .
You can dual hoist on a good roller furling too , most have dual grooves so you can fly two headsails at once .
The Olsen 25 and C&C 40 that I race on , both have dual groove headstay foils . We hoist the 2nd sail before taking down the first .
This should settle the furler vs. hank-on sail debate.
Last edited by commanderpete; 07-31-2003 at 08:50 AM.
Dunno, Pete...
I think proper hank-on sails would be a better choice with that particular crew...at least in terms of photo opp.
Dave
Exhibit B
I rest my case.
I read a ways back into this thread, and I'm going to go with Theis on this one. Sure to upset someone somewhere as always, here are my 2 cents' worth.
--I have never had a significant problem with hanked-on headsails in my life. On the other hand, I have had a couple of highly unpleasant experiences with roller furlers of various age and make.
--Roller furling headsails are generally slower to deploy and slower to take in. Slower to deploy is not a good thing. This is a safety issue.
--I have made a fair amount of money over time working on roller furling systems with problems. I have made money, but much less, doing things like replacing piston hanks. Similarly, after every good winter blow you can observe any number of shredded up furling headsails flapping like mad.
--There is of course the issue of takedown...well, I guess you might say "rollup". Ever try to do it downwind? In a lot of cases this does not work out so well and the sail must be rolled up heading dead to windward, which often requires a screw turning. Engines never fail to operate when needed, do they?
--I see plenty of furling headsails with blown and flappy leeches. Fewer hank-ons unless the boat is really ghetto (of which I have been guilty). Guess which blown out sails are usually markedly newer?
--There is a definite performance issue. With a good suit of sails, see how many degrees your boat can actually tack through. Put on the furler and try it. Place a classified ad for the furler the next day...The issue of windage is very real and significant as is the issue of added weight aloft. The additional pumping induced in a blow is detrimental and fatiguing to the rest of the rig and to the spar itself. Don't bother asking the sailmaker or the rigger who both have money to make from you, but take it up with a naval architect or a mechanical engineer. No joke.
--An auto helm is a poor device for keeping drive on the boat under sail as it can only steer a compass course as opposed to keeping up a desired sheet load commensurate with a given angle of attack of boat to wind. A very nice sheet-to-tiller tackle can be made up for a fraction of the cost and will be used quite often.
--As to staying on the boat or not, under the heading of "safety"...it can be very difficult to singlehandedly keep visual contact on an MOB while handling the boat in order to retrieve succesfully--under the most ideal conditions. Quality jacklines, harnesses and tethers are relatively inexpensive and easy to fit, especially if you make them yourself, and have the distinct benefit of keeping you attatched to the boat.
--Again (I brace for the ostracization with this one) an issue of safety. Things happen on boats, and usually under less-than-ideal conditions. When they do, they are usually solved by beef and ability. Sometimes they happen forward. If a person is not able to work their own foredeck under all possible conditions and get the job done, the issue of their safety is poorly served by the installation of yet more equipment which adds yet more complexity, and better served by a deep contemplation of whether or not they really belong on a sailboat. You can't buy seamanship at West Marine, but folks try awful hard. Unfortunately, there is no substitute.
--Dinasaur, no--Sailor, yes.
Jerk?, maybe...Realist? I try.
Best,
Dave
Nothing could be quicker than a furler. Two seconds to furl in or out. I usually just bear off some to furl the sail, but you could do it on any point of sail by easing the sheet if you wanted to.
When you get down to it, the advantages of each are as follows:
Hank On:
A) Don't have to spend $$$ to upgrade
B) Better sail shape
Furler:
A) Easier
B) Perhaps a bit safer
A purist would go for sail shape. A lazy shlub like me would pick convenience. I often run down to the boat after work for a sail. I want to be out and underway in 3 minutes. Otherwise I might sail less. Like I said, I'm lazy, but I sail more than anyone I know.
24 years of hanking on was enough for me.
No right or wrong answer here, just a matter of preference.
Well,. we are crusiers, but I'm a true "racer" at heart at times. I sometimes drive my husband Gary crazy, having him constantly trimming the genoa and watching the telltales. So I guess I'm a purist at heart as I like my sails trimmed to perfection and to make the boat "go fast". A couple of years ago I made a foredeck bag which is large enough to hold the genoa. We keep the sheets attached and it is rigged and ready to go. We can be on the water and sailing in about 10 minutes after getting to the boat without having to hank on any sails. Again, it is a personal choice for everyone. We actually have other cruising sailing friends that apologize that they have a roller furler?? We tell them it doesn't matter to us what you use on your boat. I have attached a picture with the bag on the foredeck.
Liz Fagel
s/v Fagel Attraction II
Pearson Commander #75
Foredeck Crew
And here is my good looking foredeck crew.
Liz Fagel
s/v Fagel Attraction II
Pearson Commander #75
All of the racers I know are using foil attached (roller furling) headsails and they are winning races. So the performance issue is a non-issue , because with the good systems you can remove the drum and go on pure slotted foil . These guys have $500,000 boats and use furlers .
I race on an Olsen 25 and we use a slotted headstay , last 5 races were 3 firsts , a second, and a fourth .
The new systems are far superior to the ones we had in the 70's, 80's and early 90's , I'm going with Pro-Furl as soon as I have time to use the boat again.
But, a poorly maintained or designed system is a nightmare , I had a lot of trouble with early 90's vintage Hood furlers on our C&C 40.
Here is a headsail "ready bag" like SailorLiz made (nice job). On sale now at Sailnet.com for $56.
I opted for the roller fuling head sail. 130%, 6.5oz. vectran woven by Hood sailmakers.
Because this is my baby, I shot the wad on the main and installed a Tides Marine system too. Full battens, the most roach she can handle, cunningham, reefs, no numbers though.
I'm so broke the missus won't even talk to me-for a whileJust wait 'till she sees the bill for the winches. HEY! They were on sale! What was I supposed to do?
The difference in quality of sail shape between a sail built specifically for a modern-design furler and that of a hanked sail is minor at best. In fact, I would argue that 75% of the sailors out there don't come close enough to optimizing their sail trim to even consider the difference. Go to a good loft. The local loft that I use builds a ton of sails for the racing community, and builds their cruising sails to a similar high standard for shape and quality.
That said, a conversion of an older hank sail to a furler may not be nearly as good in terms of shape. If you are going to upgrade to a furler, do yourself a favor and buy a new purpose-built sail. It is, after all, a SAILboat; I feel strongly that using tired old rags is kind of missing the point!
Nathan
Dasein, Triton 668
www.dasein668.com
Screecher Furler
Not rigged yet. But I got a deal on a used Harken screetcher furler (hope that's correct) that you hoist behind the stay with it's own wire luff - with spinner and furler attached. You take the whole shebang down all furled up.
The unit I got had sheet rigged to it and doesn't weigh much. It has to be the only way to go if you have mast lowering capability. The forestay is free for hankon sails and not committed to foils and furler. Never have to leave a furled sail up in a blow. Don't think you can reef the sail but...
It is a morvelous concept, don'tcherthink? Had Bristol Bronze put in an extra hole in the fin of the new stem fitting, now I know why. The furler is less than 5.50" D so perhaps the original three holer will work.
Last edited by ebb; 10-14-2005 at 01:47 PM.
Vectran sails Tony? Very nice
Ebb, that furler should make using the mast hinge easier.
I can do it with my Harken furler, but I have to walk the furler back while lowering the mast, don't want to put a kink in the foil.
Lowering the mast by myself I just let the furler dangle over the side.
So there I was.....cranking the mast back up....Crank, crank, crank
All the sudden ......BANG
What the.....?????
'Doh !!!!
The furler had got caught under my wooden rubrail
At least I didn't break the furler
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