Roller Furler

[Dave]

David Spaulding,
I got my CDI FF4 Furler through Sailrite last January.
At the time, they were within a few bucks of the best total cost including shipping -- since I was ordering sail making materials too, I went with them.
But the fact is, they order and ship directly through CDI, so you may as well skip the middleman; though I've found Sailrite products and service to be excellent.
I've used the CDI all summer and into the fall, and it has performed flawlessly even in strong winds.
Be sure to get the ball bearing version.
--Dave Gillespie

[DavidSpaulding]

Thanks, Dave and Tony. I double-checked my quote from the local sail loft and they are selling the CDI for exactly what CDI gets for it online, so I'm happy with that.

Dave, could you tell me more about hte ball bearing version recommendation? I'mm applying this CDI FF1 on a Cape Dory Typhoon (Yes, I'm sort of lurking here hoping to scoop up a Commander at the right time, right price ) I believe on smaller applications the steel bearing is an option. Do you think it'd make that much difference?

Thanks, again.

[Theis]

I have hanked on foresails and am going to play the devil's advocate here - giving some reasons why hanked on sails may be the best alternative. I too am getting older, and going forward does take energy -= buy hey, I need the exercise. These points are not necessarily in the order of importance.

1. In choppy seas the Ariel needs all the forward drive it can get. Many times I motor sail in rough weather. The foresail gives it that extra drive. I question whether the loss of shape from a roller furler will provide as much drive.

2. An important factor, in my opinion, is whether the Ariel has a dodger. I am a big person, and have never been able to readily get around those things to get to the foredeck. If I had a dodger (and I don't), the roller furler would be a no brainer. Without a dodger, I can get forward in seconds.

3. The roller furler mechanism, when totally furled, does give significant additional windage up forward, making it more difficult, or impossible (I don't know) to hold the boat to wind in a blow.

4. I have heard that in a blow, the roller furler can do a lot of banging (like shrouds whistling in the wind - but at a much lower frequency), and that if the slapping is severe enough, it can bring down the rigging.

5. I have no idea how old the roller furlers are, or what brand, but just this year I heard of the following: a roller furler blowing open in a blow, a roller furler getting jammed while open (resulted in a fatality - one that shouldn't have happened because the solo skipper knew about the problem before leaving port).

6. According to a neighborhood sailmaker, there is something about the masthead swivel, that if not properly adjusted can cause the roller furler to jam (I didn't get the details or fully understand the problem - but that the problem is not uncommon is the point here).

7. Most sailers are day sailors and never far from a port - i.e. not risking the unanticipated blow. That most people have roller furlers does not mean much to me as an open water sailer.

8. The horror - what do you do to bring in a roller furled sail in a blow if either the roller furler jams or the sail blows out (I know that will never happen, but it does happen - and the issue is what do you do if it does). Of course a hanked on foresail can be jammed and not able to be dropped, but that is a very remote possibility (although it happened to me last summer).

9. Wear and maintenance - Is the roller furler just one more thing that needs to be maintained, and an oversight in the maintenance can cause serious problems? What about the wear on the sail, it being used in different configurations.

10. I have heard is said that a roller furled sail does not last as long as hanked on sails - although that might be because a) the roller furled sail is up more often, and b) the roller furled sail is used in multiple configurations. The bottom line is whether more $$$$ are involved in maintenance.

11. I do consider an autopilot mandatory if sailing solo with hanked foresails. With the roller furler, you don't require an autohelm, so there are some savings there.

So those are my thoughts, using less conventional wisdom.

[commanderpete]

You do lose a little sail shape and pointing ability with a partially furled sail. I think the racing committees figure this amounts to about 6 seconds a mile. (Not too sure of this) Part of the performance difference may be because the roller furler sails are usually cut higher and don't sweep the deck.

You also cant hank on a storm jib.

But, the modern roller furlers are really trouble free. No maintenance involved. The units have proven to be reliable, and all the "Around Alone" and other record-chasing boats use them in extreme conditions. Of course, anything you put on a boat can break (and probably will).

Its true that hanking on a sail is no big deal. What aggravated me is the fact that you may want to change sails several times during the course of the day. If I put up the jib, before long I would wish I had the genoa up, and vice versa. The genoa might be the right sail for going off the wind, but too much close-hauled. Variable winds can be maddening.

This is fine if you're not worried about having the right sail up, or you don't mind changing sails (or you have a willing crew). I think its a PITA.

For me, I would never go back.

Cross over to the dark side, Theis. Leave Bill, Ed and those other dinosaurs behind.

[Mike Goodwin]

You might add that Ellen McArthur ,that just won the 'route duRhum ' race on Kingfisher , was using roller furling and beat all the maxi multihulls .
So you can figure that sail shape is not an issue , if you have the right sailmaker .

[Dave]

David,
The CDI bearings are actually "torlon" which is -- I have no idea, nylon and teflon? That's what they feel like.
I don't know if the bearings are necessary on the smaller headsail of your Typhoon, maybe not. If you have a Typhoon, Sr. at, what, 22 feet, I might still encourage the bearing version.
Great boat by the way.
--Dave G

[Dave]

Theis,
I fretted over the decision to buy a furler for several months. I am something of a purist and like hanked on sails.
I got the furler for my Ariel because my wife wanted to keep me in the cockpit in nasty weather.
But I've been won over. My response to your statements:
1) No question sail shape of a hanked jib or genoa is better than a partially furled sail. But I opted for a high clewed 130 and it serves well most of the time. Furled to foretriangle size I can still claw to windward.
3) The Ariel doesn't hold to windward anyway! A furled up sail doesn't make much difference. With the cutaway forefoot the boat has to be moving or it will fall off no matter what.
4) There is a low frequency flutter at the dock in high wind; that's why there has to be two way toggles top and bottom of the stay.
5,6,8) Furlers ARE far more reliable now. The CDI has an internal halyard and no top swivel and it seems highly unlikely that it would jam in the up position. And that's assuming I couldn't furl the sail. Top swivels on other furlers can jam if they are poorly installed -- but properly installed they are very reliable.
9,10) Very little maintenance required. Rinsing out bearings with hose now and again.
11) You want scary?? Try experiencing a big wave slewing the boat while you're on the foredeck with backed jib ripping control away from the autotiller, and said autotiller whinning away doing exactly the opposite (somehow) of what you want it to be doing and you screaming into the wind at the &*^&% machine. At the same time, I'm in the cockpit quietly furling my sail and keeping my boat under control with my own hands.

I won't go back either. BUT, I do understand the allure of hanked sails and if I were crossing oceans I wouldn't want a furler on my Bristol Channel Cutter. But I don't have a BCC and I'm not crossing oceans.

--Dave Gillespie

[Mike Goodwin]

The FF2 with bearing option is $670 from CDI , plus shipping .
You can get it from a sailmaker for $430 plus shipping . That is $240 , I can do a lot with $240.

http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/Soft...3b8+1039040842

[Theis]

There is no question that many times I debate whether to drop or put up less or more foresail, and do nothing because of the effort involved. I had thought it was only Lake Michigan that was so subject to the "who knows what's happening" type winds. The quick effortless adjustment is a super selling feature for the roller furler. And probably as long as I have the option of dropping it as well as rolling it, my safety concerns are satisfied.

With endorsements like that, I may become a convert to roller furling. However, I may have to drop off this website. Bill told me that the only cost was the annual dues. He didn't tell me it was a combination of dues and roller furling, and and a hatch cover and la dee dah. I'm going to have to make a hard decision. It may be either the pearsonariel.org website or my wife.

By the way, Pete, and perhaps I misunderstood you, I do have a hank on storm jib.

So now that I am getting a new set of stays this year, I guess the roller furler will have to wait a year. And I have those three almost brand new foresails. Maybe I'll have to wait two years.

But Dave, you gave me an idea. I wonder if my wife would want to give me a roller furler rig for Christmas - out of safety concerns. My work looks like it is cut out for me, but it may take a year to perfect.

[Ed Ekers]

Hi Gang,
I would like to offer a couple of points to the roller fuller chat. My experience comes from racing on newer sport boats that have roller systems. One issue that we have seen pop up is having the luff pull out from the head foil. This is not a problem if the sail is not exposed to a heavy load routinely, but you may find the rag flapping in the breeze if you back it in a blow. I would also offer that most sail makers will tell you that the construction of a sail is reinforced at the luff and if used in a rolled position you are putting loads on the sail that it is not designed to take. The end result is a stretched out sail. But hey if you need to shorten sail then you do it.

As far as performance goes on the Ariels, I agree with the others, your ability to point will suffer. The performance boats that race the open oceans use roller systems in a way that I doubt we would. They often have at least two roller systems, one with a reaching jib and a second roller system a bit aft of the head stay that has a smaller working/storm jib. Even with this system they still spend a great deal of time forward doing sail changes.

My last point is if I was like Asst.Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Pete, and I was always trying to impress the opposite sex I guess I would install a roller fuller system so I could hang out longer in the cockpit and do what needs to be done from there.......ed

[commanderpete]

Ed, I hope to continue to be the Commodore of Vice. Unfortunately, I have to bring my boat around to the yard and put her to bed for the Winter today. Temperatures have been getting down to the 20's and 2-4 inches of snow is predicted for tomorrow. Sad day for me.

Theis, I meant to say that with a roller furler, you no longer have the option of using a dedicated storm jib. So, this is a disadvantage. There is a company, ATN, that makes a storm jib that fits over a rolled up furler sail. But, they only make them for larger boats.

Of course, you can roll out just a scrap of sail with a roller furler in high winds. The flow of air across the leading edge of the sail is badly disturbed, but it works. I find that trying to beat into a steep chop with just a reefed main is veeeerrrry slow going.

Really the only reason to get a roller furler is convenience. That's good enough for me.

More power to the purists. If you get a roller furler Theis, you can still retain your title as "Zoltan of the North"

[Ed Ekers]

Very clever Commodore. I am sorry to hear that the Commander has to go into hibernation. Just as an FYI - the weather today in Santa Cruz is partly cloudy with a sea breeze of about eight knots and the temp is 74 degrees. I spent the day in the back yard varnishing boat parts. So if the weather gets to you pete, I have sand paper and extra brushes. ...ed

[Theis]

Ed:

Thanks. You saved a marriage of 32 years. My wife thanks you. And now I don't have to try that safety thing.

And Janice, I guess my three foresails are off the market for a while.

And for the Vice Commander, I agree, that a mainsail without a headsail has relatively little drive - although, as an aside, when I replaced my blown out piece of whatever, the drive did improve substantially.

It is the foresail that gives the real push in my experience. I will sail under a full genoa with out a main up, I will sail under a double reefed main and 100% genoa, or a 70% jib with a single or double reefed main. But, unless the winds are really vicious and I only want to keep the boat pointed towards the wind, I always carry a jib. What the mainsail does, even with a 40% reef, is stabilize the boat, keeping it from pitching or rolling uncomfortably - which is important if you are changing headsails.

The issue, often, in heavy winds, also is what is the balance that will let me heave to (I can't do that only carrying the super genoa, obviously).

[Brent]

Theis,

I agree with your arguments about hanked on vs. roller furler headsails. I had started another thread about dual headstays, but maybe it is a discussion better suited to this thread.

Having dual headstays seems to offer something of the best of both worlds; isn't the real benefit of a roller furler the ability to shorten sail without having to change headsails?

Dual headstays seem to be a cheap way to make headsail changing easy; the jib and genoa could be hanked-on all the time and you just raise whichever one is better suited to the conditions at the time. If heavy weather is expected, just replace the genoa with a storm jib before casting off.

[Theis]

That is a fascinating idea. I would be interested in any comments others have. As mentioned, I am getting the shrouds replaced this year. It would be very easy (and virtually no cost) to have both the new and old forestay connected i.e. two forestays.

I assume that the second stay goes to the masthead fitting as well. Right? Wrong?

What I really like about the idea is I could raise one without dropping the other until after the first was raised - or even if I dropped one and then raised the second, the elapsed downtime would be very minimal. Further, I would not be faced with the problem of stuffing the sail/ throwing it below while wet.

Since the sheets go to different sets of blocks, it would be easy enough, possibly, to have two separate sets of sheet lines.

Thanks for the idea. I'll be interested in what others have to say.