mast electric wiring

[Full and By]

Here is a photo of the terminal block where mast wiring is terminated. Note the hole in the overhead that is the bottom of the deck ferrule, and the hole in the mast support for the boat wiring that leads back to the panel. Access...is the key advantage here.

I will probably replace this Home Depot terminal block with a proper junction box when I get around to finding one....

[Commander 147]

[QUOTE=ebb;24682]

Jerry, can you reveal a little more on your thinking on this problema? Please...... A Greatful Robber!

Ebb

One of the things I cannot do is feed the mast wiring directly into the cabin from under the mast. I do not want to compromise the support beam that supports the mast. So my wires will just be hanging out of the bottom of the mast while I raise the mast and then the electrical wiring will hook to the deck terminal forward of the mast. The VHF cable will go through a deck seal next to the deck terminal for the elec. wiring.

So my mast raising method is greatly simplified and will look something like the picture below. The thin red lines show the baby stays that will stabilize the boom and mast during the raising process. They will all be removed and stowed below once the mast is in place.

[ebb]

Wheeeew! That's a relief! But inner eye says it can be done. It'll just take making an actual fullscale model, maybe a fiberglass rep of the mast's bottom 3' - and experiment. A time consuming venture, especially if I did it!
I feel the cable lead would go thru nearer the pointy end of the mast footprint. Cables could enter thru the Ariel maststep and miss the compression beam, but be on the main cabin side. Not good.

If you had a hollow compression post you could bring the cables in thru the Commander hole-in-step to a terminal block cut into the tube!
Take the wires down to the cabin sole and from there lead aft thru cabin furniture?

We be warned by experts about making radical turns with coax.
But, having just done a bunch of web crawl on the VHF anomaly, no company cable specs mention the caution. In fact the spec sheet for Times Microwave Systems LMR-400-UF advertises its stranded center conductor and outer rubber jacket is designed for multiple bending/flexing cycles.
So..... cable contortions thru litlgull's accomodation isn't an issue - at the moment.
(LMR400 has a VOP of 85% compared to RG214U with 66%. LMR dilectric foam is said to be closed cell polyethylene, which protects the conductor from Connector Leak* - because salt moisture won't wick into the body of the cable. VOP is 'Volocity Of Propagation' - speed of electrical signal thru cable.) Everybody seems to love LMR. But even if it's flexible, it is 3/8" diameter.

If the mast is to be lowered without disconnecting from the inside terminal (a worthy challenge) I think the cables can just as well come out the side of the mast and enter thru-deck into the V-berth area, where exposed cable is a little more hidden and easier to manage.

I'm guessing that IF the bundle exits the mast and dives into the deck takes a longer curve (comes out of the mast higher up) - and if the deck entry is forward** of the tilting axis of the mast - a generously BOWED bundle might make this SECOND sideways bend without having to unclamp the hose off the deck barb and yank the wires out (previously disconnected from the terminal.)
This has to be figured out - because the HINGED MAST DOES MOVE FORWARD when being lowered.
There has to be enough of the cable transition hose available because it is not going to stretch. It's an attitude adjustment.
We want the cable bundle to be neutral, so to speak. Don't want wire to get bent out of shape. Drip loop & cable coil inside mast bottom may contribute some looseness if any strain or twisting is caused by raising/lowering.
It's a problem for a front hinged step - a rolling mast needs a couple inches - but the front hinged step has at least six to negociate.
**It would seem that placing the cable thru-deck more forward of mast vertical could 'catch up' with the mast's forward position when lowered. The forehatch on an Ariel allows little forward thru-deck placement. - not enough for a full 6" offset. R&D needed. Don't know about the Commander.

COAX APPARTHEID QUESTIONS
We are cautioned in forums that coax should not be bundled with the nav cable. Nor cuffed together with ties or together sharing the same PVC conduit. What are the proximity rules? Coax and nav wires share the MASTconduit. Can they be bunched at the foot to make the transit out of the mast and thru the deck? What about the run aft to the panel? Can they be close, or must the VHF be entirely separate from electrics?

Haven't yet found a protective hose/tube to cover the trasition bundle. Maybe a bendy reinforced polypropylene helix A/C hose. But a piece of "Lay-Flat" Water Discharge Hose is thinner and more likely to take an odd bend as the mast is raised/lowered. Cheaper, UV protected, and easy to replace.
Much of this fine tuning won't matter if the setup is limited to getting the mast down and up twice a year.
If masting is finessed, it's more likely that the uber upper two thirds will get more attention. However, when the mast is in the pulpit, it's dangerously over-balanced and the top out or reach. To be inspected & worked on, it has to be disconnected anyways and shifted aft over the boat.

The Ancor 14/5 cable arrived from Jamestown.. It is a honkin 1/2"D white cable with five colored wires packed tightly together with some kind of extra insulation filling all space between the singles. Looks like it has to be kept DRY. Stranded wire and the cable is bendy - but it's stiff. Makes me think that it could work (as proposed) in a tube delivery THRU THE MAST STEP. The LMR coax as well. These items come rolled, and therfor have a memory curve that's useful positioning cables in an interior tube for the mast-down bend. Imco the thru-hole in the step could be made to work!

But any more R&D here is not happening. So it's out the side of the mast, and in this Ariel, into the V-berth. Figure with allowances for easy curves, ups and downs, and the ubiquitous drip loop ...50' may NOT be enough length from the masthead. Likely a 60' piece of LMR for enough slack. Per foot cost is about the same as the 14/5. Pricey. Not including "harsh environment connectors", and all the other doodahs.


QUESTION about 14/5
Is it OK to use this 14/5 for There-and-Back Again wiring? Up one set of colors - back another set of colors - IN THE SAME CABLE? ? ? Thanks!

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________
* Look into Coax-Seal and Coax-Wrap. The wrap is a silicone based self-amalgamating tape.
The seal comes in rolls like butyl tape with paper separator. After wrapping the connectors, form it and squish it into a tight molded seal.
They say t's removable after being cooked in the elements without contaminating the connectors or the cable.

[ebb]

Hey Jerry,
Looks like you might be a 'friend of the sketchbook'. [tho I don't see that particular sketch in the Bingham article.]
On the last page Bingham tells us that his famous cat never was.
Altho there were cats he modeled "along the way: Fingers, Jasmine, Gotcha, Geraldine and others."

But 'Sherman Hoyt' was a real mouse!

Who Bingham says (in past tense, since it's been 30 years since the Book's publication) "Carried his own passport (a certificate of origin, complete with photo, customs stamps, bill of health and the associated array of paperwork) to alleviate problems of entry into foreign ports. He was more a source of fascination to boarding officials than a hindrance, more than once diverting the attentions of inspectors from a questionable cargo of grapefruit."


There's been talk here over the years of "masting" as Bingham calls it - BUT none to my knowledge has shown us how they do it

So it's up to you, Jerry, to document the deed for us - AND SHOW US HOW IT'S DONE.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
"As I approached the St. Augustine Bridge while heading north from Miami in the Intracoastal Waterway,
I clearly saw dozens of saiboats lying at anchor on both sides of the span.
Within seventy yards of the bascule, I spotted the sign...."Out of Order".
A passing skipper then informed me that the bridge would not be operating for five days.
So, I simply lowered my mast and chugged under the roadway." Bruce Bingham's intro to his 'Single-Handed Masting" article.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
....Just attempted to find out something about this treasure we've been robbing all these years.
Of course google, as usual, goes diddling off the subject ASAP, playing word games like some stoned-out junkie...
So much pleasure this guy has given us
....where is Bruce Bingham's photo, bill of health, and associated array of paperwork ? ?

[Commander 147]

Ebb

I fully intend to show how I do it. I am very confident in my method because it is very similar to methods I have used previously and because a good sailing friend of mine who is also an engineer helped me with the math to engineer the system in a manner that the loads on any of the members were not to high. He was working on his mast raising system at the same time we worked out mine and he has been using his for a year now.

I am in the middle of the recore on the starboard side of Destiny right now which praise the Lord is not as bad as the port side was. I put some balsa in the bow this morning. When I finish the 4 spots I have opened up now I will be at a point where I can actually set things up to try it out. That will allow me the chance to show you the system and size my new shrouds and get them ready at the same time.

Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the Sketchbook (YET) but was able to find the picture from my previous post in Daniel Spurr's "Guide to Upgrading Your Cruising Sailboat". I think I need to add the Sketchbook to my wish list for birthday's and Christmas and maybe my daughters or grandkids will be able to get it for me. This is my 4 year old grandson Nathan who I think will be my sailing buddy and possibly the future owner of Destiny.

[ebb]

Proud Gramps, Fearless Nathan, Nifty hats, Cool cheaters!

Adventure ahead! That's one great photo!

[ebb]

Here are some mock ups of the mast to deck hose/cable connect.

[ebb]

[The mock-up is for a radiused forefoot mast. Imco a front hinged mast-step, apropos the hose, makes no difference in what the hose does.]
First photo
Mast vertical. The hose is TPR* rubber with an external polypropylene helix support. It's vacuum hose and looks tidy but would be better with a smooth exterior.
Second pic
Mast down. Hoses when they get thick walled become very unbendy. In this photo conventional lay-flat fire hose is tried - and with the mast horizontal it's in quite a twist. 'Lay flat' 1 1/2" polyester fabric over nitrile or buna'N rubber. Not really an exterior product.
Third
is a side-on view of the duct hose. The deep loop is slightly collapsed which means it is under pressure.
But note that the thru-deck fitting is accessable, and with the mast temporarily in the pupit the clamps can be unscrewed, the cables removed from the interior terminal, and the wires 'easily' pulled up out of the deck.
Assume the horizonal mast position is a rare occurance.
Fourth
shows the ducting again and the tight radius loop. You can see mock cables of old stiff anchor warp coming thru the ply.
Fifth photo
shows blue low-pressure pvc on pvc lay-flat water discharge hose. It's about as pretty as
the firehose when it bends, but it's cheap and extra length would store in a neat tight roll.

They all are about 18" L. The hoses are 1 1/2"ID. The fittings are Forespar Marelon and will have the dubious distinction of the hosebard installed on the exposed side of the mast and the deck. Inside fitting diameter is 1 1/4", which is not much of a hole to pull wire and connectors thru. But it is 1/3 more area than what the 1" gives in wire room.
The flange nut is rather loose making water-tight installation problematical.
The mock cable does not move in any of the hoses due to the action of lowering and raising.
It looks like the straight tails will make for less radical cable bends and easier wire dismantling. IMCO.

It is amazingly difficult to find a nice smooth hose for the job. Many ducts with better ozone and UV credentials have spring steel wire in the helix. So some very flexible hose cannot be used. Hose with plastic helix is never very flexible. But might be used like the duct hose example.
First choice in rubber would be EPDM, but it turns out this stuff is always thicker than thinner and while flexible might not make the tight loop seen in the test.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
*TPR (also TPE, TPU) is also found as ARH Thermoplastic Rubber Hose. A mix of vulcanized rubber and styrene thermoset plastic. It has a polypropylene helix wear strip added onto the plastic-rubber tube.
As we can see nobody has a brand on it yet, known or is mis-known by acronyms. Said to have good ozone and UV resistance. ARH has a nice piratical sound (Wallace Beery), hope that's the one that sticks !
No advertiser seems to know what the acronym stands for: ARH could mean AirRubberHose OR ArmedReconnaissanceHelicopter OR AromaticHydrocarbonResin, take yor pick.
MacMasterCarr has 1 1/2"ID for $3.86ft in 5' pieces (pg233) Can be had in FDA all white for that special yachtsy look. [Most catalogers sell hose only in full coils of 25-50-100ft.]

[Commander 147]

Ebb

One comment about your options. You might find that the jib sheet catches on the tubes every time you tack. I had a problem with that on my last boat and had to devise a shield to keep it from happening. That is why I plan to keep my connections low to the deck and behind the forward hatch where they will be less of a trap for the jib sheet.

[ebb]

Jerry,
Meant to see if the deal was possible.
Haven'tn seen anybody else do it. I'd really like to see what others have done.
This more-or-less waterproof solution is only a compromise. Had to find out where the hole in the mast was going!
I'm supposed to be painting the mast.

Maybe a temporary short line can be set up off the mast to the cabin top that would keep the sheet off the tube ?

On the Ariel I put in a larger Bomar hatch which left a bare two inches for the barb fitting.
That two inch space is right up against the strongback inside. But inside the V-berth.
Believe an unaltered hatch and strongback Ariel will have more wiggle room.
It will require some work to get the fitting in.
The position in the mockup photos represents the only place on A338 where there is a chance of getting the cable inside.
Do your jib sheets come back THAT close to the mast.....?


Tried various locations using the slots in the ply. There has to be a dozen other, better ways of doing it.
Chose the deck fitting to be as close to the mast step as possible.
Tried different lengths of hose. The hose led me to the taller position on the mast.
The mast thru-barb is on-center 11" above the top of the step plate.
My deck thru-barb is in the two inches running just in front of the plate. Which inside is just in front of the beam.

And I forgot to allow for the maststep pad. Reassembled the jig with a 2"H block under the step.
No photo. And discovered the duct hose did not need to be longer.
Must assume that when the real stuff is being put together there will be some tweeking.

If you are going to run your cable in hose, I'd guess with your front hinged step you can lower
the mast cable exit to about 6" up from the plate. Leaving the deck fitting as I have it,
you will need some very flexible hose to make the loop when the mast is down. And be hard put to shorten it, I'm only guessing!
And guessing again, you'll most likely be using a smaller diameter hose as well.


You could stuff the hose into the mast without a fitting, like Tim Lackey did.
Saw it on his Triton 381 mast pages, but later went back to confirm and couldn't find it. And his mast
was not the raising kind. Done like that it takes a very satisfactory slant down to the deck fitting.
And a corresponding short piece sanitation hose can be used. Just make sure the mast can drain.


Putting the umbilical hose off the left side of the mast must have seemed natural to me. Is one side better than the other, I wonder?

[mbd]

...You could stuff the hose into the mast without a fitting, like Tim Lackey did.
Saw it on his mast pages, but later went back to confirm and couldn't find it. And his mast
was not the raising kind. Done like that it takes a very satisfactory slant down to the deck fitting.
And a corresponding short piece sanitation hose can be used. Just make sure the mast can drain.

Here you go Ebb:

A thread on the Plastic Classic forum:
http://plasticclassicforum.com/forum...php?f=4&t=4496

And from the Contessa 26 he redid: http://www.lackeysailing.com/equinox/april09/40609.htm

[carl291]

EBB , why not some type of deck fitting where the loop of wire need for the mast swing when stepping and unstepping would be under the deck and before moving the mast you simply loosen a clamp pull a length of wire above deck for the slack needed for swinging the mast. Even if the deck fitting was just some sort of nipple and butyl tape was stuffed in the hole to seal the wire exit. i think it would beat having a loop of wire exposed on deck.

[ebb]

Mike, thanks for bringing those blue-lines in. The Triton 381 mast stuff is gone.
But we do have a good discussion going HERE on ways to get nav wires to the battery.

Carl, I don't believe in actuality (not tested yet obviosly) that the cable in the transition hose
moves at all in the hose. I don't think it does. Found nothing tugs on the wires/rope when the mockup mast is moved up or down.
Using rope and not cable which is more slippery. Still, all the action seems to be in the movement of the hose.
The turns out of the mast and into the deck will hold the wires in the tube. Proof will be in the pudding.
Maybe a simple clamp, placed in front of the terminal block below can be divised to stop any possibilty of cable being yanked.

Imco supported cables in the mast can make it easy to have a neutral circle/loop/driploop inside the bottom of the mast
befor diving into the hose - without worrying about the wires snagging.
What was said in a post above about the wire moving because the mast is moving is pure paranoid speculation,
(maybe it's speculative paranoia.)
The cables do have to be supported so there is no sag on the fixture connectrions.
And it looks like connections to the terminal in the V-berth can be installed almost ready to be pulled up the chute.
Meaning that the cable wires would be disconnected at the terminal and merely pulled up out of the deck. When part of the plan.
THAT IS, after the hose has been declamped and pulled off the barb on the deck. [How that could be done is proposed in post #32.]

Course you have to put up with the damn hose when sailing.

Trip was to figure out if full on waterproofing was possible. Yes.
Then find out if the mast could be dipped without messing with the cables - and that looks possible.
It's a different book when the mast is being decommished for the season - then more deliberate work
has to be done. But in the spring it'll be a piece of cake to put the mast back up with full navs and radio.

And raising the mast by yourself is having cake and eating it too ! ! ! Jerry promised.

[mbd]

I just couldn't believe Tim would DELETE something, so here you go.



v1.0: (1st pic)
http://www.triton381.com/projects/re...ststepping.htm

v2.0:
http://www.triton381.com/projects/ma...nstruments.htm

v3.0: (2nd pic from pg 2)
http://www.triton381.com/projects/ma...il09/41109.htm

[mbd]

Pic: Found the deck end of v2.0

And his interior treatment of the wiring: http://www.triton381.com/projects/sm...lprojects3.htm

It's ALL here in this Plastic Classic Thread: http://plasticclassicforum.com/forum...ast+wire+chase