My first impression is that the cockpit would not drain with the drains crossed. When the boat is healing the exit point of the drain line on the topsides would probably be above the cockpit drain level and water is not fond of running up hill. There is very little (at least on my commander) distance from the cockpit floor to the waterline level. So even a modest heal would cause the water to stay in the cockpit.
Am I understanding the plan correctly or am I all wet??????????
JERRY CARPENTER - C147
A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.
The crossed cockpit drains installed by a PO, did not function very well. We restored to original and added a separate drain for the sink . . . with seacock. Very pleased with the faster draining cockpit and the added safety from being able to close off the sink drain. Let's see, two holes closed by removing marine head, one hole added for sink, net loss of one hole . . .
Craig, sir,
Could think a tad more extreme about this drain problem.
Which is, as I understand it, how to drain the cockpit WITHOUT UNDERWATER HOSE EXITS.
The drains Pearson traditionally installed are ALWAYs filled with water.
You can almost hear the reasoning why seacocks were never installed.
One reason, of course, was the contortions the short hose would be put to making the connects from seacocks to the drain flanges.
The original glassed in standpipes point vaguely at the cockpit drain flanges.
If that bothers you then the radical fix is to put a 90 'L' fitting right below the cockpit drain exit
and simply run hose horizontally along the bulkhead over to thruhulls in each side.
Where they drain thru the hull above or within the boot stripe.
Instead of a 90, we could put in a T on each drain and connect the drains across the middle.
Any water captured inside the hose when the boat is heeled will drain out the low side.
You will essentially see daylight if you eyeball through the starboard hull exit across to the port exit.
litlgull has aft cockpit exits using these 90 degree L's. Had to get them as high as I could.
The damn cockpit deck tilts forward!!! Ended up gluing the fittings in without the extra flange. The fitting's molded end is actually at deck level inside the cockpit. Can touch the inside of the fitting with a finger- as high as possible.
Minor problem is that the thruhull entering inside will point at a slight angle toward the bulkhead. The hose will have to bend away from the bulkhead and meet the thruhull in a soft curve. Don't know how much, just visualizing. But the thruhull will have to be a certain small distance aft of the bulkhead.
If you are a purist you'll probably install seacocks* - that would put the thruhull further aft and the hose curve further away from the protection of the bulkhead. Thinking what gear might get caught on the hose in the lockers.
Could install this cross drain accessing through the locker lids. Difficult but Doable.
The thruhulls outside could have a protruding bottom lip that cuts the draining water and discourages it from running down the hull if you exit above the boot stripe. Probably unlikely.
The thruhulls could possibly exit just ABOVE the bootstripe. That is if they are naturally LEVEL at that point or slant downward a bit. At level, water being water still drains out of a tube or scupper, slanting isn't absolutely necessary except for drain speed. Athwartship hoses and tubes will empty at the slightest tip of the boat..
If the drains are connected across the middle (certainly this would be quite unusual) there would NEVER be water in the tubes (as long as the boat is floating and sailing above her waterline.
Well prepared UV pvc 90's or T's could be used - if using epoxy to glue things to the cockpit deck.
A better bond might be got with 5200 or Sikaflex 291.
I'm assuming you will want larger drain openings?....
Could do a dry run with mailing tubes and blue tape.
Easy to imagine this installation done in all hard pipe - with the pipe going straight thru the hull without a fitting, like the rudder tube or the original thruhole cockpit drain standpipes.
But the Ariel cockpit hangs non supported in the Pearson installation and therefor has some, if slight, movement. Therefor the more dicey use of hose has to be factored in.
Perhaps the install hose could be protected with a shelf or ledge on the bulkhead just under the hose to act as a shield.
[Have not described here the traditional cross drains that usually exited underwater in wooden boats. This idea would have the exits above the waterline just below the level of the cockpit - actually close to the bootstripe. The remodeler would have to stabilized the hanging cockpit, or use
heavy rubber hose and thru-hulls. The idea will have to accept NO seacocks. But they could be put in if accessable. Much easier would be aft
drains straight thru hard plumbed.
I'm in total agreement that the galley sink drains to its own seacock - and can always be closed OFF!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
* cheaper and lighter nylon seacocks might be good here.
Last edited by ebb; 05-19-2014 at 08:35 AM.
That is a sweet photo of Faith. I fully understand your desire to nix the sink drain from the scupper through hulls. It's just one of those things that looks good on paper but... I gotta admit, I've never fully embraced the crossed drain hose idea unless you are trying to give yourself more room for snaking the hose from scupper to seacock? It is tight under there, Lord knows! Once you get a 1 1/2" seacock on top of a 1/2" pad and add a barbed stem for the hose you're nearly touching the scupper tailpiece. For a while I entertained the idea of moving the seacocks forward and then crossing the hoses just for working room but abandoned it as idiotic.
Now I'm in the same school of thought of reducing holes below the water line as much as possible. And water stains? That close to the boot stripe I honestly think it's a wash. Especially on a salty, proven craft like FaithNow a water stain from the rail on down...well, that might be an affront.
You have always seem to show good judgment and sound logic when it comes to Faith so do what you think right. However, if you should need a set of 1 1/2" seacocks and barbed tail pieces I'd be happy to swap for a wind pilot!
My home has a keel.
Tony,
Your words are a great encouragement to me, even if your faith is utterly misplaced.
The picture was taken in GA, on a day or so south of 'Thunderbolt'... the tide rolls out FAST in those parts, so when I touched bottom it was a matter of minutes before she was hopelessly hard aground.
The water ended up running out COMPLETELY from around her, she was actually high and dry before the tide returned (10' range IIRC). She was able to lay completely over in the mud (solid ground on both sides!) before the tide came back and re floated her. I was VERY pleased to learn that Carl had once again done good, she was able to right herself without taking water in... (not all boats will do this).
She currently has seacocks on the cockpit drains, installed by the prior owner. They are in the original locations, with the sink drain 'T'ed into the port drain.... My plan was to put a 90 on the bottom of each of the cockpit drains, so the hose would run acrosss the bottom (under) the cockpit sole so as to maintain some level of clearance there.... Faith carries a pair of Trojans (105's) under the cockpit that are already tough to top off.
I like Jerry's post, it will be good to measure the angles before I do any cutting...
Ebb's idea is at once brilliant, and may be more then I plan on. I like the common drain tube, but not sure I want to have all the 'T's and hose clamps to accomplish such a task. I am sure he would do it in an elegant way, suitable for the ISS... but alas I am not ebb. Sure do appreciate his (and all your) input though.
Maybe some variation on the oem set up.. with a divorced sink drain...
And always Bill... the voice of experience is greatly appreciated. Sure would hate to try something that has already been proven not to work out so well.Originally Posted by Bill
The crossed cockpit drains installed by a PO, did not function very well. We restored to original and added a separate drain for the sink . . . with seacock. Very pleased with the faster draining cockpit and the added safety from being able to close off the sink drain. Let's see, two holes closed by removing marine head, one hole added for sink, net loss of one hole . . .
Thanks all!
Oh,
I have a 1" seacock, think it would suffice to drain the sink?
tony,
I went with a sump and pumpout system for the sink.
call me old fashioned, but I am a fan of 1.5" seacocks right where the old glass tubes were. no problems there in 15 years of service and the seacocks let me change the hose if needed while in the water. the only non-seacock factory openings left on the A-231 are the deck drains. i have to admit i am not fond of the factory arraingement for the deck drains. it is the principle reason i pull the boat in winter (just in case they were to freeze and crack).
thay said this is a great forum for experimentation. Ebb's system is a cool one for dumping a lot of water from the cockpit. dual exhaust like a hot rod......
cheers,
Bill@ariel231
Coming back to visit this again.
Last haul out, a long long time ago I got OBE and did not revise Faiths cockpit / sink drains.
I changed the ball vales, and left the "T" where it was.
She is going to get this settled soon.... Maybe very soon. I just got back from 5 months sailing aboard a Pearson 424 (Emerald Tide) and spent this evening aboard Faith. There seems to be a small amount of "seepage" from the ball valve that I replaced, that the prior owner installed.
Weird thing is that the cockpit drains reduce down to 1" or so before they exit.... Not sure why anyone ever thought that was a good idea.
Why not replace the cockpit ball valves with 1.5" marelon barbed throughulls? I know, the idea of throughulls is appealing... Bt realistically there is no circumstance where I can imagine closing them.
What was wrong with the way they did it from the factory? Other then the "T" for the sink drain of course?
------
OBTW,
Anyone think a 3/4" seacock is too small for the sink?
I like the idea of the seacock for the drains but;
- having a seacock only works if aboard the boat when the hose goes.
- if hose goes when aboard, it is not that much harder to pound a damage control cone in the hole.
- hose failure seems exceedingly unlikely. Even folks using automotive radiator hose are using hose rated near 20psi in a 2psi application.... Use heavy exhaust hose and your safety factor is pretty high.... Or use regular reenforced hose and even if you changed them every haul out you could change them for 49 years for the price of the seaCocks....
Has anyone ever experienced, or heard of a cockpit drain hose failure sinking a boat? I know Ariel's have sunk for sink drain failure, I want the sink on it's own dedicated seacock I can keep closed when not in use.
Shut off valves or no. HOSE ballet
Hey, Captain Craig, life seems to be treating you well!
I think the Pearson solution for cockpit drains is perfect for what they did. Any upgrade will take time, materials. Perhaps it depends on whether the boat is going offshore. Pearson did what they did, imco, because legitimate drain hose can't make the bends and turns if seacocks are installed.
So, it is possible to come up with something: strong hose to a strong thru-hull, all stainless clamps, a couple of softwood emergency plugs available right there, etc.
Can't remember, but I believe the original cockpit drains are 1½". Imco, that's minimum and should be maintained.
Any decision has to take into account that the Pearson hull drains are underwater. Murphy's Law applies.
Trident makes specific cockpit drain hose which may be flexible enough to be bent between the cockpit and a short bronze seacock. Therefor, it possible to replace the hull-drain hole, where it now is, with a thru-hull fitting of nylon or bronze - and sometime later upgrade by adding the valve. Making it easy on yourself or the next owner.
Same applies to the sink. If you have a regular marine sink, why not plumb the diameter of the drain to the same size thru-hull or seacock? I don't think it matters what you go with - except smaller D specific drain hose probably bends easier. But it is a very good idea to have a dedicated drain system for the sink, NOT sharing drains with the cockpit. When you plumb to a seacock, you can change perishable hose for permanent hose afloat.
In a real world situation, when your cockpit hose suddenly lets go, Will you have the mental where-with-all to comprehend what's happening when you look below through the companionway... and see water sloshing and rising in the aisle....will you be able to get to the drains when you finally realize that's where the water is coming from....will you find the wood bung....if there is a hole for it....maybe a hose clamp is needed, got one?....got access and a driver? .....you know, don't think so.... we have a problem....and the boat is sinking........
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HOSE
It's very easy to make a choice of hose. Of course, if the only thing between you and the deep blue is some plastic or rubber hose, then you better be on speaking terms with the sea-gods. Don't trust what the guy next to you in the marina is using. Don't trust what anybody tells you in the yard. Get marine hose that is specific for the job. We only need a couple feet. Expense be damned. Cockpit drain hose constantly has seawater in it. Automotive waterhose is a rediculous substitute for 'continuous immersion' marine hose. There are people who go offshore with a few microns of good enough plastic tube between them and Disaster Jones. Good enough for them.
Trident Corrugated Marine Wet Exhaust EPDM #252. They have rated vinyl hose like Biilge & Live Well #147 - but vinyl is vinyl and it melts. Problem is that wire helix can rust, so you should coat the wound where you've cut. (might snip sharp end off and apply some Lanocote) If you're looking at other brands, the hose you want is "heavy wall rubber, raw water pickup hose". EPDM is highend plastic/rubber that defies weathering, UV and aging.
Corrugated polyethylene bilge hoses (120, 121) are vulnerable to abrasion.
Ledgendary Trident 101 Sanitation hose (MaineSail* & PeggyHall both recommend it) has a 5 year warranty and lasts far longer. It is a ply EPDM hose with a center plastic helix. Comes only in 1" and 1½". No arguement against it , except that it is not raw-water-intake but sanitation hose. And Trident does not say sanitation hose can't be used below the WL. Expensive - how it compares with other expensive hose is for the skipper to decide.
[*CompassMarine has a DIY on hose. NOTE: that the close up foto of wall difference between Shield & Trident brands shows delamination of rubber layers in the thicker Trident hose. SAE has strict standards for this kind of thing (SAEJ2006) backed by the ABYC. So, make a scene with the supplier when you buy any exhaust hose that looks like plys are not bonded together!]
FisheriesSupply.com has full charts for each hose (incl other brands). Trident BELOW WL EDPM: Soft 110/200 (no wire, short distance, smaller diameters). Wired 100/250 ( long distance, smaller D.) Wired 252 (larger sizes from 1½, corrugated wet exhaust). These are drain and bilge hoses you can take to thru-hulls (not recommended by anyone) and seacocks. Compare prices first with other venders. SailboatOwners.com often has decent prices.
IMCO
Last edited by ebb; 06-02-2014 at 08:58 AM.
The photos below are modifications to the thru hulls on my 1965 Ariel, "Augustine." I decided to add a separate thru hull for the sink, which in their original configuration with the sink drain about an inch above sea level and a T draining the sink to the port Cockpit drain line, I considered a major liability. I now keep the sink seacock valve closed unless I am actually using the sink. We all know the danger warnings about the possible failure of the sink drain fitting, but in addition in the original configuration, anything that plugs the port and starboard drains (leaves, bird excrement, or other debris clogging the seacock valves) will cause the cockpit drain water to back up into the sink and then when the sink fills onto the cabin sole and into the bilge. If bird excrement is involved this will not be pretty. This actually happened on my boat when it was owned by a previous owner). So this is not speculation on my part.
Anyway, regardless of expressed concerns about having sufficient room for the installation, this has worked quite well. The seacocks shown are all Groco bronze seacocks
Scott
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