A question for all of you on the sink drain

[Commander 147]

How many of you have cut the old glass tube out and installed a proper sea cock in it's place for the sink drain?

Of those of you that have what issues did you run into along the way?

[bill@ariel231]

Jerry

I replaced both of A-231's cockpit drains with forsespar 1.5". seacocks. My only issue in fitting was the need to shorten the drain tubes from the cockpit sole.
As far as the galley sink goes, i had originally plumbed the port side seacock to drain both the cockpit and the sink. Since my sink was relocated outboard by 8" inches or so, it tended to fill with water when the boat was knocked down on stbd tack. I elected to move the sink drain to a dedicated sump / electric pump located under the port settee. An easier alternative that will not require power is a separate seacock for the sink to let you secure the sink when off shore.

cheers,
bill@ariel231

[ebb]

I hope it's OK for big mouth to post again.
I would go with what Bill@231 says.

BUT
once you remove the old tube and repair the holes conservatively with feathering and fiberglass disks to the strength of the hull. .... then you can try the seacocks for the best position on the hull in relation to the aft cockpit drain tubes. You may find that your new holes go at least partly through your new repair.
If you use a real seacock you will have an epoxxied backing blocks to mount the valves to and to drill the three bolts through. You also will be shortening the hose length, which may make a good connection harder.

If you are upgrading completely you will need to find a "wet exhaust" type hose (instead of sanitation hose) for the connection. There is nothing stiffer than reinforced hose. There is almost no room to make the "double bend" from the cockpit to the valves.

I ran my cockpit drains out the stern. I can't defend this option because it has some problems.
But I did run the sink to its own 1 1/2" Marelon seacock. The length of tube from the sink drain to the valve barb extension is very short - but at a similar angle that the cockpit seacocks would have.
You can look at many kinds of reinforced hoses at McMasterCarr. I would choose a hose with plastic wire reinforcement. I bought some translucent green pvc stuff that seems pliable enough to make the turn in the short length and seat well on both barbs. Most hoses are rolled and come to us with a set curve that helps make the connection.
However I'm convinced I really need a Trident brand silicon wet exhaust hose - just one foot of it will cost a bomb - because it is slightly flexible, is made with fabric and is less likely to get pierced, and less likely to collapse when bent, smooth inside and has a long warranty...
Haven't got it yet, Been waiting for a tip from somebody here..

[ebb]

The American Boat and Yacht Council sets the standards we refer to constantly for AC/DC electrical systems - Buoyancy - Cathodic Protection - and Seacock, Thru-hull Connections & Drain Plugs.
There are many more standards and the list keeps growing. The seacock standard is found under H-27. Cost is $50 for a copy!
A.B.Y.C. is a private not-for-profit corporation. Basically the organization is staffed by professionals from the industry. Forespar sits on the Council - and all the other familiar names do also.
The standards they set are all the guide we have as 'recreational sailors.' The Coast Guard also is a major influence on the Council, consider it an acting third party to any regs we abide with. There are professionals outside the profit motive field, but generally, we have to see these propounded STANDARDS as the minimum requirement for SAFETY. It is about safe yachting and safe products.

H-27: (partially) ...the seacock assembly shall be securely mounted so that it will withstsnd 30 seconds of a 500 pound weight
in its most vulnerable position.
"securely mounted" is not defined or specified.

Since most of us don't have a 500# weight we can carry around we are left with interpreting the reg in our practical situation.
If the Forespar god shows us a diagram of his recommended installation it is up to us to decide, to imagine, that a 500# weight on an unsupported thru-hull that has an unsupported in-line valve perched on it will not bend or break Is it SAFE. What if the 500# weight was leaning on it for ONE MINUTE. What if the FULL 500# weight was SUSPENDED with a chain from the valve/thru-hull?
Don't recall that Forespar or Groco show us their A.B.Y.C. mandate in photos of actual tests on their product.

I'm pretty sure that A.B.Y.Council members don't think that Joe Dingkle is going to test his thru-hull installation with a 500# weight .
And that may be reason why Forespar AND Grocco SHOW unsafe imco installations in their literature.

In Groco's defense you can buy from them a bronze flanged adapter that makes the in-line valve more secure. The adapter is thru- bolted to the hull, the thru-hull is screwed into the adapter (it doesn't therfore float unsupported) and the in-line is screwed onto the inside end of the adapter (which we assume has matching threads. It definitely shows they are aware of the in-line valve problem (without retraction).
Forespar does NOT have a Marelon adapter to make in-line valves more secure in their cheaper installation.
Can see doing this if you must have an 85-5-5-5 bronze in-line valve However it is a much taller system, might not get enough hose into our tight quarters. A true bronze seacock is quite squat.
And is it that much more expensive than an in-line valve on an adapter? It would be a decent retro fit if you have bronze in-lines already installed on hole liners.

Cannot use a bronze fitting with a plastic valve. Cannot use a bronze valve on a plastic thru-hull.
Buy all the bronze pieces to a system from one manufacturer.

[bill@ariel231]

I used the 1.5" seacocks for my cockpit drains and head discharge (for offshore), 1.0" for the engine intake, 3/4" for the head raw water intake.

all of my seacocks are forespar marelon flanged seacocks mounted with backing blocks, thru bolts and bedded in 3M 5200.

I don't about how to test the 500# requirement, but I can tell you that when i changed out my first set of marelon 1.5" seacocks under the cockpit**, removal required a reciprocating saw, a propane torch, a 3/4" drum sander and the angle grinder.

note: ** from this experience, i recommend you buy new seacocks, free leftovers from other people's projects are no bargain

[ebb]

Jerry, that's how the vote goes in this post.
I'm for Marelon because it guarantees no corrosion that can eat up bronze seacocks.
I don't believe the ABYC still recommends linking all the boats underwater metal together with wire to protect them from galvanic corrosion.
But how would you zinc your thru-hull?

85-5-5-5, 85% Cu, 5% Pb, 5% Zn and 5% tin, called Gun Metal by the Brits,
has a long history as an excellent underwater cast bronze. The lead and zinc are for machinability, the tin locks the alloy together.
Bronze needs whatever electical system you believe in to stay healthy.
While the s.s. ball inside won't corrode in the first 5 years, forums report that the Groco valve stem gets eaten.

Bronze seacocks can be taken apart and serviced.
Marelon valves cannot be fixed. If a handle breaks it can be replaced.
The ball inside my Marelon seacock is plastic.
I hope to make the hose and hose-barb assembly easy to remove.
Maintenance requires a little dab of Lanocote on the ball to keep the handle free to move.
Can be done while the boat is in the water.

Forespar is on the internet.
There is a phone.
Maybe we should have a spare handle?

[mbd]

How about a sump for the sink? Then rig up a Y-valve to your manual bilge pump plumbing for emptying. No more holes anywhere.

[bill@ariel231]

tony,

I went with a sump and pumpout system for the sink.

call me old fashioned, but I am a fan of 1.5" seacocks right where the old glass tubes were. no problems there in 15 years of service and the seacocks let me change the hose if needed while in the water. the only non-seacock factory openings left on the A-231 are the deck drains. i have to admit i am not fond of the factory arraingement for the deck drains. it is the principle reason i pull the boat in winter (just in case they were to freeze and crack).

thay said this is a great forum for experimentation. Ebb's system is a cool one for dumping a lot of water from the cockpit. dual exhaust like a hot rod......

cheers,
Bill@ariel231

[Scott Galloway]

The photos below are modifications to the thru hulls on my 1965 Ariel, "Augustine." I decided to add a separate thru hull for the sink, which in their original configuration with the sink drain about an inch above sea level and a T draining the sink to the port Cockpit drain line, I considered a major liability. I now keep the sink seacock valve closed unless I am actually using the sink. We all know the danger warnings about the possible failure of the sink drain fitting, but in addition in the original configuration, anything that plugs the port and starboard drains (leaves, bird excrement, or other debris clogging the seacock valves) will cause the cockpit drain water to back up into the sink and then when the sink fills onto the cabin sole and into the bilge. If bird excrement is involved this will not be pretty. This actually happened on my boat when it was owned by a previous owner). So this is not speculation on my part.

Anyway, regardless of expressed concerns about having sufficient room for the installation, this has worked quite well. The seacocks shown are all Groco bronze seacocks

[Bill]

The crossed cockpit drains installed by a PO, did not function very well. We restored to original and added a separate drain for the sink . . . with seacock. Very pleased with the faster draining cockpit and the added safety from being able to close off the sink drain. Let's see, two holes closed by removing marine head, one hole added for sink, net loss of one hole . . .

[c_amos]

The crossed cockpit drains installed by a PO, did not function very well. We restored to original and added a separate drain for the sink . . . with seacock. Very pleased with the faster draining cockpit and the added safety from being able to close off the sink drain. Let's see, two holes closed by removing marine head, one hole added for sink, net loss of one hole . . .

And always Bill... the voice of experience is greatly appreciated. Sure would hate to try something that has already been proven not to work out so well.


Thanks all!

[ebb]

Craig, sir,
Could think a tad more extreme about this drain problem.
Which is, as I understand it, how to drain the cockpit WITHOUT UNDERWATER HOSE EXITS.
The drains Pearson traditionally installed are ALWAYs filled with water.
You can almost hear the reasoning why seacocks were never installed.
One reason, of course, was the contortions the short hose would be put to making the connects from seacocks to the drain flanges.
The original glassed in standpipes point vaguely at the cockpit drain flanges.

If that bothers you then the radical fix is to put a 90 'L' fitting right below the cockpit drain exit
and simply run hose horizontally along the bulkhead over to thruhulls in each side.
Where they drain thru the hull above or within the boot stripe.

Instead of a 90, we could put in a T on each drain and connect the drains across the middle.
Any water captured inside the hose when the boat is heeled will drain out the low side.
You will essentially see daylight if you eyeball through the starboard hull exit across to the port exit.

litlgull has aft cockpit exits using these 90 degree L's. Had to get them as high as I could.
The damn cockpit deck tilts forward!!! Ended up gluing the fittings in without the extra flange. The fitting's molded end is actually at deck level inside the cockpit. Can touch the inside of the fitting with a finger- as high as possible.

Minor problem is that the thruhull entering inside will point at a slight angle toward the bulkhead. The hose will have to bend away from the bulkhead and meet the thruhull in a soft curve. Don't know how much, just visualizing. But the thruhull will have to be a certain small distance aft of the bulkhead.
If you are a purist you'll probably install seacocks* - that would put the thruhull further aft and the hose curve further away from the protection of the bulkhead. Thinking what gear might get caught on the hose in the lockers.

Could install this cross drain accessing through the locker lids. Difficult but Doable.
The thruhulls outside could have a protruding bottom lip that cuts the draining water and discourages it from running down the hull if you exit above the boot stripe. Probably unlikely.
The thruhulls could possibly exit just ABOVE the bootstripe. That is if they are naturally LEVEL at that point or slant downward a bit. At level, water being water still drains out of a tube or scupper, slanting isn't absolutely necessary except for drain speed. Athwartship hoses and tubes will empty at the slightest tip of the boat..

If the drains are connected across the middle (certainly this would be quite unusual) there would NEVER be water in the tubes (as long as the boat is floating and sailing above her waterline.

Well prepared UV pvc 90's or T's could be used - if using epoxy to glue things to the cockpit deck.
A better bond might be got with 5200 or Sikaflex 291.
I'm assuming you will want larger drain openings?....
Could do a dry run with mailing tubes and blue tape.

Easy to imagine this installation done in all hard pipe - with the pipe going straight thru the hull without a fitting, like the rudder tube or the original thruhole cockpit drain standpipes.
But the Ariel cockpit hangs non supported in the Pearson installation and therefor has some, if slight, movement. Therefor the more dicey use of hose has to be factored in.
Perhaps the install hose could be protected with a shelf or ledge on the bulkhead just under the hose to act as a shield.
[Have not described here the traditional cross drains that usually exited underwater in wooden boats. This idea would have the exits above the waterline just below the level of the cockpit - actually close to the bootstripe. The remodeler would have to stabilized the hanging cockpit, or use
heavy rubber hose and thru-hulls. The idea will have to accept NO seacocks. But they could be put in if accessable. Much easier would be aft
drains straight thru hard plumbed.

I'm in total agreement that the galley sink drains to its own seacock - and can always be closed OFF!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
* cheaper and lighter nylon seacocks might be good here.

[Tony G]

That is a sweet photo of Faith. I fully understand your desire to nix the sink drain from the scupper through hulls. It's just one of those things that looks good on paper but... I gotta admit, I've never fully embraced the crossed drain hose idea unless you are trying to give yourself more room for snaking the hose from scupper to seacock? It is tight under there, Lord knows! Once you get a 1 1/2" seacock on top of a 1/2" pad and add a barbed stem for the hose you're nearly touching the scupper tailpiece. For a while I entertained the idea of moving the seacocks forward and then crossing the hoses just for working room but abandoned it as idiotic.

Now I'm in the same school of thought of reducing holes below the water line as much as possible. And water stains? That close to the boot stripe I honestly think it's a wash. Especially on a salty, proven craft like Faith Now a water stain from the rail on down...well, that might be an affront.

You have always seem to show good judgment and sound logic when it comes to Faith so do what you think right. However, if you should need a set of 1 1/2" seacocks and barbed tail pieces I'd be happy to swap for a wind pilot!

[c_amos]

Oh,

I have a 1" seacock, think it would suffice to drain the sink?

[c_amos]

Tony,

Your words are a great encouragement to me, even if your faith is utterly misplaced.

The picture was taken in GA, on a day or so south of 'Thunderbolt'... the tide rolls out FAST in those parts, so when I touched bottom it was a matter of minutes before she was hopelessly hard aground.

The water ended up running out COMPLETELY from around her, she was actually high and dry before the tide returned (10' range IIRC). She was able to lay completely over in the mud (solid ground on both sides!) before the tide came back and re floated her. I was VERY pleased to learn that Carl had once again done good, she was able to right herself without taking water in... (not all boats will do this).

She currently has seacocks on the cockpit drains, installed by the prior owner. They are in the original locations, with the sink drain 'T'ed into the port drain.... My plan was to put a 90 on the bottom of each of the cockpit drains, so the hose would run acrosss the bottom (under) the cockpit sole so as to maintain some level of clearance there.... Faith carries a pair of Trojans (105's) under the cockpit that are already tough to top off.

I like Jerry's post, it will be good to measure the angles before I do any cutting...

Ebb's idea is at once brilliant, and may be more then I plan on. I like the common drain tube, but not sure I want to have all the 'T's and hose clamps to accomplish such a task. I am sure he would do it in an elegant way, suitable for the ISS... but alas I am not ebb. Sure do appreciate his (and all your) input though.

Maybe some variation on the oem set up.. with a divorced sink drain...