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Thread: Outboard Discussions

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
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    Walnut Creek, CA
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    Honda fit

    Honda 5 hp 4 stroke :

    Good fit, good power/push/drive

    no Smoke ...sweet!!!
    Attached Images  
    To error is human
    To Sail is divine... Book of French

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Walnut Creek, CA
    Posts
    136

    article

    The Great Stroke Debate
    by Tom Wood
    Even though we are sailors, outboard engines are often an
    integral part of the way we use our boats. SailNet's systems
    maven discusses the pros and cons of a two and a four-stroke.

    http://www.sailnet.com/view.cfm?page=10833
    To error is human
    To Sail is divine... Book of French

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
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    444
    My Honda 7.5 four stroke motor on my 1965 Ariel #330 gasped its absolute last a week ago. It failed in the harbor channel as I was raising the main while single-handing.

    I have researched the outboard motor threads on this forum and have gleaned much valuable information. It appears from what most people say that a 6 hp motor will provide adequate power for an Ariel. I hit the OB motor stores on-line and here in town, and I am about to buy a new motor.

    Specific comments, both to the positive and negative, on the two motors listed below will be appreciated. I am interested in how these motors specifically fit into the well and in the lazarette locker. Does the hatch close? Will the motor lie flat in the locker? How is the power for open-ocean sailing?

    Although here in the winter when the sand bar builds in the harbor entrance, one must occasionally punch through the white water of broken waves and fight the resulting current to go to sea, we do not generally have to deal with current. It is also necessary on rare occasions to surf into the harbor channel on either the white stuff or an unbroken face. I did that last November in the dark, and hit a piece of the sandbar in the process as a breaking wave lifted my stern and drove my bow down. Usually, however, the biggest challenge to the motor is motoring upwind into ocean swells.

    1. The Nissan 6 hp four stroke

    The Nissan 6 appears to fit the well based on my measurements, and it's much less expensive that the Yamaha 6 hp at less that 1.2K. I have read the posts on prop pitch, and Mike Goodwin's endorsement, in which he statedin part, "The Nissan 6 HP 4 stroke fits the well, can turn 180 degrees, has a vertical pull start feature, throttle arm folds back, and weighs 55 lbs."

    The dealer tells me that you can't flush the motor unless you remove it and place it into a barrel of fresh water. Is that true?

    2. The Yamaha 6 hp Four Stroke:

    Two cylinders, the simple fresh water flushing feature, and the alternator make the Yamaha 6 hp four stroke motor attractive, but the configuration of the cavitation plates appear to prevent it from fitting into the well. A dealer has suggested grinding off most of the upper cavitation plate: Not my idea of a good thing to do to a new motor.

    At 83 pounds, this motor is a bit hefty for my tastes, and with the long control handle, it appears that a remote will be necessary if the motor is to fit into the lazarette locker, bringing the price up to around 2K plus tax.

    The top rear portion of my well has been modified to accommodate the long, low Honda 7.5 motor housing, but the bottom of my well is still in the original configuration. I am not interested in making further well modifications to accommodate an engine.

    Has anyone actually installed the Yamaha 6 hp four-stroke motor in an Ariel or Commander without modifying the OB well?

    French makes the Honda 5 hp also seem attractive. I have also looked at Johnsons and Mercurys, but I am most interested in the above two motors.
    Scott

  4. #49
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    Sep 2001
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    Orinda, California
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    From the Practical Sailor artical, it appears the Yamaha 6 & 8 share the same block. If you decide on it, I'g go for the greater hp.

    The other engine is made by Tohatsu and is badged as Merc's and Nissan's as well. I really think the Tohatsu 6hp is a good choice for our boats (however it's badged), unless you have some really wilde tides to fight. And at 55lbs, it's relatively easy to handle. Down side may be the single cylinder. I know a single cylinder makes for a lot of vibration in the 2-cycles, but I'm not sure about the 4-cycles.

    As for flushing, there is a removable bolt the hole of which takes a hose fitting. Got one on my Merc. You could probably use the Merc accessory in any of the engines. Pain to R&R after every sail, but is worth it for safety reasons. Besides, I don't have room for an engine bucket

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
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    The Yamaha 6hp and 8 hp four stroke motors do utilize the same block. Neither motor appears to fit the well on an Ariel due to the rather large forward facing cavitation plate, although I would be interested in knowing if anyone has actually tried to insert a Yamaha 6 or 8 in an unmodified Ariel OB well.

    I am currently leaning toward a Nissan 6 hp four stroke motor. I would still be interested in hearing from others who have used this motor (or a Mercury 6 or Tohatsu 6) about power, prop pitch, and fit in the well in Ariels or Commanders.

    Regarding the flushing mechanism. The engine must be flushed while running. The flushing attachment costs $18.00 from Nissan, but is not recommended by the dealer with whom I have been working. He tells me that Nissan prefers that the motor be flushed by running it in a tub of fresh water.

    The Nissan also lacks an alternator, and it is a single cylinder engine, but its light weight at 55 lbs, reasonable price tag and most of all, the fact that it fits into the well and into the lazarette locker are big pluses for this engine. My remaining question is:

    Does anyone out there have information to share about the fit and actual performance of this engine in an Ariel or Commander that has not already been posted on this forum?
    Scott

  6. #51
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
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    821
    Robert leMasters, Commander#115,and I both have the Nissan 6hp 4 stroke .
    I have an alternator , vertical pull start cord and the power prop option .I strongly reccomend all these options.
    The motor fits the well with room to spare .
    According to my GPS , I see 6 knots easy .
    I have the flushing plug option too.
    I never leave the motor in the well and it fits nicely laying inside the lazzarette, along with 2 gas tanks .
    My wife can install the motor in the well and she is only 112 lbs.
    The motor is very quiet and there is no vibration like you would exspect from a single cylinder .

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
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    626
    Did I hear you right that the Nissan 6hp is only one cylinder? I had thought almost all the 4 cycle engines )other than the one and two HP versions) were two cylinder units

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    444
    Mike and Theis,

    Thanks for the reply Mike. I have read your previous posts in this forum related to prop pitch. They were very helpful and clued me into the issue of prop pitch and moving heavy objects through the water. I am inclined to purchase a prop with a 7" pitch, since Nissan offers only 7", 8" or 9" pitch options.

    I am delighted to know that an alternator option is available on the Nissan 6 hp. I will include that option in the package that I obtain.

    I am curious to know how you go about flushing the motor with the flushing plug. Do you remove the motor from your boat prior to flushing it, or can you perform that operation with the bottom part of the motor still in the well, but out of the water? I am using a Garhauer lifting davit to raise and lower the motor due to a back-related lifting limitation.

    I am also very curious about the vertical pull start cord feature. The horizontal pull cord on my old Honda 7.5 hp motor ran perilously close to the gasket on the hatch, and probably led to the demise of that gasket, to say nothing of the knuckle wounds on my right hand. Does the position of the Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motor in the well preclude use of the horizontal pull start cord, or do you feel that the vertical pull cord is merely a nice option? Do you have the option of using either vertical or horizontal cords on your motor or are you limited to only a vertical pull?

    That's right Theis. The Nissan 6hp four-stroke motor is one cylinder. I assume that is why at 55 lbs it is much lighter than the 6 hp Yamaha, which weighs in at 83lbs. The very good news from Mike's post is that an alternator is available on this engine. This is news to me even though I have spoken to two dealers. And of course the fact that the thing fits in the well is a minor miracle. After lugging around my old Heavy Honda 7.5 the 55 lb Nissan 6 hp four-stroke motor seems like a very nice solution.
    Scott

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
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    626
    That is great about the weight. Makes me envious.

    My Yamaha has a vertical pull feature, and it helps a great deal. However a word of caution. It does wear the pull cord, and I have gone through a couple of them (but then I have had some starting problems from time to time). You might want to carry a spare.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Hampton Roads Va.
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    821
    I carry several square 5 gal. buckets(kitty litter) , set the motor in the bucket and flush .

    The horizontal pull start worked , but was awkward to get to , the vertical pull is a piece of cake .
    It is an elbow attachment on the front of the engine and is not a quick change , I'd guess 5 minutes and tools .
    I like this start device because I can just reach back and give it a yank while still seeing all around me .I found the tiller in the way at times when using the horizontal pull through the little hatch at the back of the cockpit .

    Another nice feature , is you can turn the motor through close to 180 degrees which is a real help as these boats dont back worth a hoot .In fact I tie the rudder off amidships when backing and just steer with the motor .
    If you are wondering why these and several other designs dont back well ; It is the keel , a keel that has little drag ( the draft is nearly as deep at the front or the back of the keel ) resists turning when going astern , the benefit is shallow draft.
    If the keel follow the angle of the stem all the way to the heel of the rudder she would have more draft and back beautifully .
    The other benefit of our keel is when you haul out, you can set her on the ground and the water line is near horizontal still .

    I like the Honda and the Yamaha , but they failed too many of my check list , namely weight , fit the boat and price to a small degree .

    I found the Nissan, (Mercury, Tohatsu)to be the best solution for my needs .
    If I were to get a 2 stroke , I was going with the 8hp.

  11. #56
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
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    Mike,

    Thanks for all of the advice on the Nissan 6 hp Four Stroke motor Mike. I think I will wander down to the motor shop and buy me a Nissan. I'm ready to feel salt water spray in my face once again. I am not sure about the kitty litter though.
    Scott

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    McHenry, IL, but sail out of Racine WI
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    626
    On the backing feature, the Yamaha does back very well (although the directionality can be difficult). The difference is the Yamaha prop. I have had the OMCs, McCulloughs and others and they are terrible with regard to power in reverse.

    The reason for the limited power in reverse is that the exhaust feeds towards the back with a conventional prop, so that, in reverse, the prop cavitates because of the exhaust. The Yamaha prop (and it may be available with other motors) reverses the outlet for the exhaust, and the prop gets a tremendous bite. You might look into the Yamaha type prop for your motor. They might be available.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
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    290
    Mike,

    Is the Nissan 6hp 4 stroke available with remote control? Or if not, can you close the lazarette with the handle in the upright position?
    Kent

  14. #59
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    Sep 2001
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    Hampton Roads Va.
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    821
    I think you can get remote control and yes the handle folds all the way back along side the cover.

    Theis,
    The Nissan backs well , the Ariel doesn't .

  15. #60
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
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    2,241
    Kent, don't forget the upper exhaust port when considering closing the hatch. See earlier ob discussion and photos. You need a fix (maybe a fitting with hose attached) to "pipe" the exhaust away. As I recall, several skippers are "thinking" about this.

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