'Faith' gets a new composting head

[c_amos]

The facilities aboard Faith have worked just fine. She had the original (1964) Shipmate head... works well, fixed the pump once with part of a leather shoelace... still works.

The head sat in the original position, and the intake / discharge seacocks were handy. What was not handy was the diverter valve and large rubberized bladder that would serve as a holding tank.

I do not recall ever messing with the valve, but we always kept the seacocks closed so we were 'legal' in a kind of legal way.... it was a stretch and I never was happy with it.

We looked at the porta-potty route, but can't get into the idea of using our fresh water to flush with. Not too thrilled about dealing with the sloshing slurry either...


So, I recall Ebb is going with the Airhead... I figure I would do some more research.

I can find no one who has either the Natres way, or the Airhead who is anything but happy with them.

It seems that the Natures way folks may have gotten their start with Air head, and left to develop their own products based on the things folks called in and complained about the Air Head.

I took the plunge and got the Natures head


I am a cheapskate.

That said, I took the plunge and bought a Nature's way head for Faith.

I have spoken with Larry, at Nature's way for a few months now. I bet I have been his most labor intensive 'pre-purchase' customer to date. He has been very patient with me and I would say that based on the 'feel' of our conversations the company has a higher then average level of customer service.



Some of the reasoning behind this is;

1.) Eliminate the liability of the discharge through-hull. I may use the smaller inlet for something else. My discharge through-hull will 'seep' in fresh water. I would like to get away from the current set up. Interestingly I have never had an issue in Florida (where everyone claims to have trouble) but future travel plans would include some inland waters that may be a bit more picky.

2.) My diverter valve is broken, and I can not see paying the silly price for a decent replacement. I hate this peice of gear, since it serves no real purpose onboard other then to be quasi-legal. I really am looking forward to getting rid of this, and the silly 5 gallon bladder that if I ever filled it with 'product' I would have nightmares about... :P

3.) My venerable 'shipmate' head (circa, 1964) will need maintenance. I am quite sure I could re-hab it into shape, but would still be stuck with the current set up.

4.) I was able to get a 'factory second' head at a substantial discount. If I would buy new hose, diverter, and seacock I would have paid more then I am paying for this one. The 'defects' are that this one has a 'flat' finish (not polished) stainless hinge, and a scratch on the lid. I had been asking for this for some time, and Larry had 3 of them assembled from parts they would not put on full priced heads. He said he had one more available as of this afternoon.

5.) Having monitored those with composting heads I can find no one who has anything bad to say about them. As a matter of fact, there is a company making a high end cruising boat (A Hess drawn cutter) that is installing them as original equipment.

6.) While I like DIY better for most things, I felt the supporting documentation that came with a production unit would be preferable to trying to explain to a boarding party in the middle of the night why my bucket and hose contraption was legal.

Here is a little more from Nature's Way's brochure (PDF)

Quote

1. No holding tank, no pumpouts, no odors, no clogging, no kidding.

2. “The Head” has a unique molded design (with a gray granite color) and incorporates stainless steel components and hardware into a high quality product.

3. This composting toilet is self-contained and waterless.

4. Uses 1½-2 gallons of peat moss in the base for your composting matter.

5. Because of the waterless urine separating design, this unit has extraordinary holding capacity. This could translate into a month usage by a cruising or traveling couple, or perhaps an entire boating or camping season of weekends.

6. “The Head” is very compact and space efficient measuring 13” wide at the base, 17¾” front to rear, and is just under 20” tall.

— Plus! Easy installation in most applications, simply mount brackets to fl oor, vent unit to outside, and hook to 12V power source! (Several options available.)

From the Owner's manal (also PDF)

Quote

NATURE'S HEAD OWNER'S GUIDE
Congratulations on your acquisition of a Nature's Head!

Although the concept of a composting head (toilet) is not a new one, the
unit which you have purchased is the freshest of the new generation of this kind of product.

Nature's Head designers, both sailors with many years of boating experience, and their wives—one a research biologist and one an RN, have used earlier versions of composting toilets on their boats. The concept has been refined and reworked to provide you with a more user friendly product which is aesthetically pleasing, more space-efficient, and a more
affordable alternative to previously offered models.

Your new Nature's Head will provide you with years of worry-free sanitation solutions without the inconvenience of holding tanks, frequent pump-outs, or smelly portable potties.

[c_amos]

It arrived within a couple days, well packaged.

Box looked like it would not fit on the boat;



The head it's self was a tight fit through the companion way;




Another shot... getting it in.

Issues;

The base fits on the pad that Pearson put there. The problem is the OEM head is 13" high, and the Natures way is 20". My feet don't touch the ground.

I can either drop the floor, or raise the rest of the platform.

Sure don't want to rip out that floor to find that if I go an inch or 2 lower I loose the width....

Anyone have any suggestions here?

[c_amos]

I like the construction, the hinges are stout and well secured;



We tried a couple of alternative placement locataions...



THey had drawbacks....

So we set it in place, and covered it up with all the gear adrift we could scrounge up to see if it looked at home.

[ebb]

Never seen first hand the Natures Way unit (sounds like a line of supplements or a laxitive!).
Except for the basin seems to be a copy of the AirHead. With the same footprint.
The Airhead is 19" tall. I lowered the V-berth deck to make sure it would fit under a ply filler between the V-berths. And I may have raised the berths a little as well, can't remember.
The Airhead still fits but it is a little more aft. The problem is the stirring crank which sticks out and hits the V-berth side as I have it. Began researching cranks and thought one of those wheel types (McMasterCarr) with a handle on the rim would work. Some have folding handles and would be quite compact. Have to make a decision.

Not enough of me fits on my Airhead's really tiny seat (it's still in the box) and I would willingly swap with a 20" N.W.
The bigger bowl is one hell of an improvement.
Tho I can see that the seat on that one is not all that larger for mine too.
Airhead should have seen this obvious upgrade coming and made a more accommodating throne themselves - instead of inviting competition, and blatant design robbery. The price should be lower as well.
I remember writing to Airhead saying that most head customers would be owners of small boats and would find it easier to fit a composter if it was lower by a couple inches. I think both could be redesigned shorter.

In the meantime,
Could take off the top toilet seat lid and put the plywood that probably will be over it there instead. Maybe loose 1/2". Could put a rim of foam tape on the plywood to seal the lid if necessary.
I believe air circulation is key to happy composting.

THE VENT!!!
In the V-berth area - where I have to put the Airhead in littlegull - there is no obvious place to run the all important vent.
Put that solar pieplate vent on the foredeck? Where?
Up on the cabin top? Where? My main cabin vent is there: the forehatch.
Out the side of the cabin in some trick vent? That would look BAD. Do those solar vents work vertically?
Do we have to pull the air out with a fan at the top OR can we blow the air up the tube to a tidy little dorade bippie?
How many turns can that vent hose take?
How does one disguise the vent hose snake in a well appointed yacht?
Any ideas?

[c_amos]

.....
THE VENT!!!
In the V-berth area - where I have to put the Airhead in littlegull - there is no obvious place to run the all important vent.
Put that solar pieplate vent on the foredeck? Where?
Up on the cabin top? Where? My main cabin vent is there: the forehatch.
Out the side of the cabin in some trick vent? That would look BAD. Do those solar vents work vertically?
Do we have to pull the air out with a fan at the top OR can we blow the air up the tube to a tidy little dorade bippie?
How many turns can that vent hose take?
How does one disguise the vent hose snake in a well appointed yacht?
Any ideas?

I think I have an idea.

I do not like the foredeck, or the cabin top for the little vent. I was thinking that a small vertical dorade box on the inside of the cabin just aft of the port port....

Something like a smallish 4"x6" (?) box, with the outside opening on the bottom (air comes in, water drains out through the same hole). Air goes up and over a baffle and out the bottom of the box. Cover the little hole with a small clamshell (might even use one of the ones that came off of the lazy-rat).

As for the hose connection, have a radiused in tube coming off of the bottom of the dorade box and following the inside of the side deck and down to the area under the shelf... where it can connect to the MFG supplied hose.

Of course that is how I would like to do it, probably end up running the tube directly to the bottom of the dorade box...

[ebb]

Craig, you know you are right of course! Great idea.
The vent exit tube could be on the inside of the cabin with just a couple holes showing on the exterior on the side.
Don't want to spoil that gorgeous molded cabin front with a boil.
And I like the molded tube idea instead of the hose. Can see, since the molded half-round tube going to the dorade under the deck has to be custom, it can be mounted dry and removable giving closer access to the dorade itself in case that has some problems.
Be an interesting project to make a tubular (or half tube) dorade. Like you say it may need some volume to handle water coming in the outer vent hole.

In-line blower, huh?

I'm going to think about it from your standpoint.

[Tony G]

Craig

I must second Ebb's bold title line, way to go!

Way back when Ebb first began his campaign of supplanting the traditional head for a composter the size issue was the stumbling point. A rebuild is undoubtedly in the works. Now it's just a matter of how substantial of a rebuild it will be. Rebuild the shipmate, rebuild the v-berth, rebuild the whole kit and kaboodle...

If I recall correctly (yes, I spelled that phrase out) you use Faith's v-berth as storage (and head) rather than sleeping quarters. So any rebuild you do might as well serve both purposes as best it can. That doesn't sound very fun, inexpensive, convenient (pick any two) for most anyone out there. But if you're going in there you might as well do it up righteous.

Sliding the head aft to the the main bulkhead, much like Geoff did on UHURU, is going to give you the most head room. Of course that is after lowering the sole there the farthest you can and still get the minimum footprint you need for the composter. You will have toe-stubber there just about 2 inches tall and still have to raise the surrounding platform about 2 inches. All off this I'm pretty sure you've considered allready.

So this ends up coming back to you...what changes would you make to Faith's forward compartment if you had to retrofit her to afford a composting head? It seems this may be one of those changes that precipitates a chain of changes. You came to the choice of a composter based on experience and sound reasoning. Now it may be the unfun, expensive, inconvenient (pick all three) task to ever-so-slightly rehab her to become a more perfect fit.

If you could just hold off a year or two I hope to be passing through your neighborhood and I would be more than happy to lend a helping hand.

[c_amos]

Thanks for the encouragement guys.

I really like the composting idea. I like it more now that I have removed the couple dozen feet of mildew covered hose... and the dis-fucntional diverter valve... but most of all the rubber holding bladder.

The last picture... the one which was clearly staged (could not possibly have that much random stuff laying around)... it was the result of moving on to the 'next' step.

The V-berth is indeed the garage aboard Faith. The access hole cut into the bunk on the stbd side is packed with 'spares' and 'stuff'. Net screwed into the original oval hole keeps it all in. The topclimber, the sea anchor, all that nice-to-have, but-hate-to-stow gear goes to the V-berth.

I want to shave down the couple of inches of plywood that hangs over the side, and install a drawer there. I also want an enclosed cabinet there... we used plastic storage bins while cruising, but they don't use the space well.

The head really wants to stay on center line IMHO. I Carl was right.

I wish the new unit was about 7" shorter, but it is not. I did talk to Larry about the design, and he told me that the height was a product of the width since the agitator has to rotate to keep the composting happy.

The seated height is not bad WRT the overhead even when all the way fwd. I could probably just fasten it down there, and build a small step in front of it to accommodate a proper 'seating' angle.

I say 'I could' but I would probably not be happy with that. Knowing that it could be lower would bother me. I just wish I could better envision just how much I can drop it there and maintain the width. I have searched both of your threads to see what you found under the head... I am still having trouble figuring it.

I suspect that it will go down and somewhat aft. I hate to loose too much of the depth of the V-berth since it is hard to use the space fwd of the head as it is. Digging through boxes and bags, especally in a rolling anchorage, is no fun. I REALLY like to have a place for everything, and everything in it's place. Digging is no fun, even with lists with all the stuff onboard (product my worlds greatest First Mate).

Glad to have a 'support group' to help me sort through all of this.

Thanks also, for the pictures you took as you worked on your boats. It is nice to have such a great reference.

Faith has

[mbd]

A head upgrade is in my future. I've got a "traditional" head in the basement awaiting installation, and after 2 weekends with a family of 4 and 2 sessions of emptying the porta-potti, I've been mulling over this topic again.

So, for this composting head, does the vent hose need to be attached all the time?

How about installing the head on a sliding platform so it could be pushed aside and secured out of the way when not in use. Then it doesn't take up a prominent and permanent spot right in the middle of a nice open interior or an already crowded v-berth area. Or maybe it could be stowed under a chart table or bunk or some other horizontal surface? (A galley counter is just a little too gross for me.)

But with it stowed to the side, the "permanent" vent hose could be attached and run up a bulkhead or the side of the cabin. When needed for business, you could disconnect the vent hose from its permanent placement, slide the head out, and reattach the hose temporarily to the forward hatch opening or one of the opening portals.

Although, I suppose the shape of the hull may prevent you from truly being able to slide the thing out of the way. The middle of the v-berth is the lowest area of the forward portion of the hull.

As for Craig's issue, perhaps he could install "mast mate" type steps in the v-berth and fold them down for secure footing when perched on the throne...

[c_amos]

So, for this composting head, does the vent hose need to be attached all the time?

Only when there is 'compost' in it. I did find someone who fitted an airhead and did not hook up the vent. He said the smell went away a few minutes after 'use'.

How about installing the head on a sliding platform so it could be pushed aside and secured out of the way when not in use. ......

...... install "mast mate" type steps in the v-berth and fold them down for secure footing when perched on the throne...

I will have to look at that, thanks Mike.

[ebb]

Rising from the throne is a function of where the overhead hatch is.
And especially where the male standing option is functioning.

One thing I've noticed in round table problem solving here on the estate is
that when one guy is sure he has a solution he will hold on to it until it is in pieces if the others prevail with a different solution.

The cello part in a composer's quartet is endlessly repeatable - but real invention comes with improvisation.
Larry's width to height formula (restriction) obviously is what he came up with or copied
- but somebody will come along with a better, or at least different, design. No doubt about it.
Don't know that a portopottie sized composter is possible.


Having had experience aiming and missing the portolet on San Francisco Bay,
A funnel with a tube going into the unit's bottle could be a real convenience. It could live in a rinsable bag and frequently get dunked to sweeten it.

[mbd]

Having had experience aiming and missing the portolet on San Francisco Bay...

With a crew including an 8 year old who already has bad aim on land, we have a strict "sitting only" policy aboard Sea Glass!

[ebb]

Natures Head seems to be the predominant composting head at the moment.

I have not found a head to head comparison with the older Airhead yet on the net.
Would be great to see a competent comparison between the two and what improvements if any besides the seat being molded as part of the bowl and its larger size were made to the Natures Head.
How about actual use testing???

Most satisfied owners of small composting heads are couples. And couples with one or two kids. Haven't read anybody regretting the switch. Altho living with a composter has it own list of things to be conscious about. No product with chlorine, for instance, can be used for cleaning the Head. Copious amounts of toilet paper cannot be put IN the Head. It won't compost and It'll fill the chamber very quick. So you'll need a plastic bag for the tissue near the head. Going to need a place for the spray bottle. And you may need a place for the second pee bottle.

google> Composting Head in a Sailboat Update! - J C McDowell and the Family

google the SSCA Discvussion Board
where you are more likely to find people who have experience with onboard composting. The purpose of peat moss is to provide an oxygen environment for aerobic bacteria. Coconut coir is another fiberous material that will do the job and comes compressed into a brick(which you break apart) - takes less space to store than peat. Garden store?

google> [Liveaboard] Was Heads now Composting heads


Seems like nearly everybody made the switch for purely practical and logical reasons.

[Tony G]

Well, Craig, it's a month and some days later. The weather around here is acting way too much like winter and that has driven my mood to the bottom of the abyss. Boat work around here has all but stopped. But on the way down I thought, Hey! I wonder what's happening with Faith's composting head install? That's good _ _ _ _ happening there and it looks to be ahead of the curve and in a direction we're heading in.

It appears most people agree it just seems to make good sense to switch to composting heads on boats like ours. Good, common sense (which doesn't seem to be quite so common anymore). It is another example where breaking away from tradition results in something better-not just another new product to sell, or, buy in my case. So it is with more than just passing interest, Craig, when I ask, "What's up with the crapper, man?"

[Tony G]

Just read 13 pages about composting heads over on the Cruiser's Forum. It really seems to be the way to go onboard and onshore. A couple of the posts have some numbers and facts regarding water 'usage' and sewage....

I don't know if I have the (?) guts to build my own, but it's been done before!
I have tried to upload a couple more photos of a DIY composter one of the members on the CF built but I can't seem to pull it off. Too bad.