Mounting Winches

[CupOTea]

Imagine my surprise after following the installation directions on my incredibly expensive and brand new Lewmar self tailers to find that the bedding compound they say to put on the base of the winch for attaching to the winch pads had pushed up into the gear assembly! Life Caulk adhesive caulking in the gears - great.

So, I disassembled the winches from the pads and took the winches apart completely and cleaned and re-lubed them and am ready to start over.

Does anyone have any suggestions about bedding? The jib winches that came on my boat show no signs of any bedding or bedding residue - looks like they just bolted them onto the pads as is.

The instructions also mention drain holes in the winch base. Well, if there's bedding compound all the way around the base, how will the water that drains down through the winch escape?

No bedding on the winch pads wouldn't seem to be a problem since any water that comes through the pad will simply drip onto the deck. However -
I'm installing a winch on the cabin - as per many of the photos on the site - and that involves through bolts to the cabin where leakage would be bad.

I suppose I could bed just the perimter of the winch base and work out a little drainage canal in one spot? Anyone ever done this before???

[ebb]

None of the book writing experts ever get around to mentioning this. Just took a quick look: Vigor, Seifert, Calder, none think it important.
You, through experience (thank you very much for that) have shown us what NOT to do!

A winch will be very tightly fastened - you still may want to protect the wood/varnish it is usually mounted on. I don't believe any goop will survive the forces of cinching up the install OR the the side loads put on it when used.
The semi-liquid squeezes out.

I seem to remember thin gaskets were used to separate the metal from the wood. I wonder if manufacturers have them available for their winch bases, have you checked it out? Lewmar should have winch base seals.
Gasket will have just what you observe: cutouts matching the channels for the water to run out. Very important! I believe A338 had thin gaskets under the cockpit winches.

Gasket material is readily available. Maybe you could experiment for us on the material, design, cutting and fitting.
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w e l l.... you're not going to do that! Right?

So I go to my still new in the box Andersen's and look at the instructions for mounting tips. First on the "list of items needed" is bedding compound. Instructions say to apply a light coat of bedding compound on the bottom "ensuring the bolt holes are coated..."
"DON'T COAT THE UNDERSIDE DRAIN CHANNELS, THEY MUST BE LEFT OPEN."

By bedding compound they can only mean 'non-hardening' old fashioned bedding compound. It's not a rubber, but a kind of vasoline/mineral putty (Dolfinite) that will allow you to lift the winch base off the cabin top or coamings three years from now. Easy to apply and cleanup. Non lethal. It is not a sealant or adhesive. Original Dofinite never oozed, it squeezed out with cinching but then stayed put forever.

LATER EDIT:
Butyl tape might be a good choice for metal on wood, modern (made by Petit, I believe) Dolfinite will eventually harden -- but butyl will never harden and will always act as a sticky rubbery sealant. Not adhesive. Tube rubber adhesives like polysulfide when squeezed thin loose their barrier quality. Name brand butyl tape (Tremco) will be a water barrier no matter how tight the winch is fastened. Have to work it thin when applying around the circumference of the base to avoid getting it into the gears. You do want butyl in the chamfers you've made in the holes for fasteners. This is under the heads, but completely clear of threads. Do not use butyl tape on the threaded portion of fastenings.
Since butyl tape is so clean and easy to use, 'dry' runs can be done. Apply what you think - plunk the winch down - lift it off to see what you did. Correct it. Collect it off using a sticky ball. Do it again, just right. It be there just as you left it six years from now. And will pry right off!!

[Rico]

I used life calk - On the Andersen winches; just enough on the base to keep the moisture from sitting there and a bit in the middle as bedding. I was sure to keep the drainage slots clear.

On the original southcoast winches: I also used life calk. Again, a bead around the edges to keep moisture out and a thin layer all over just to provide an even bed for support.

Be sure to give the stuff plenty of time to cure. It takes a while!

[ebb]

For discussion I propose a 'cheat' to make it fairly easy to bolt winches on the cabin top.
There will be a ring of five or six #12 or 1/4" bolts. You have to drill them thru the liner which has a space between it and the roof. The space will imco vary between 1/4" and 1/2".
You will be putting in a wood backing block to allow cinching the bolts. But because of the hollow behind the liner you can end up with leaking anyway - and the water getting in will run down the inside of the liner to the shelves that most Ariels have riding on the stringers. This can be a problem with anything mounted on the cabin like the rails.

The cheat is to buy 2oz syringes from a fiberglass supply.
Mix up a gel of fumed silica and epoxy and squirt it into the holes you have drilled.* You are hopefully filling in the space with a pad of solid epoxy. Only you will know how much of a doughnut of epoxy/gel you are getting in there. The stuff has to build up between the two surfaces and spread out - has to be the right consistency - have to experiment. After set, redrill the holes and bolt on the winch. Probably get away with a lot thinner backing block. IF you really got the knack of backfilling the liner you might have created all the backing you need and MAYBE you can get away with only fender washers. Certainly easier than carving a backing block to fit the curve. IMCO.
This is not a recommendation, just a possible idea.

The alternative and probably easier way for most people is to drill the winch holes... BUT only thru the cabin roof (and not thru the interior liner) Squirt in the gel, enough to create an interior pad around the hole (between cabin molding and liner). Let set. Then redrill thru. Chamfer the screw holes in the cabin 'roof' to create a caulking 'washer' under the winch* --and provide a backing plate. A thicker plate will make it possible to counterbore the machine screw (bolt) holes to inset the nut and washer, and cut the shank flush.
* If you oversize the mounting holes 1/64 or 1/32 oversize, it will give all the screws a bit more ease to fit.

imco filling the liner space is worth the effort.
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* If your gel is the right consistency - let's say slightly loose but still thick like soft beaten egg whites - the stuff can be sucked up into the syringe by pulling on the plunger. Easier than filling by hand.

[CupOTea]

Thanks, gents. I'm mounting the winches to the original fiberglass pads which I have renovated and reinforced (on the inside with a 1/4" of vinylester putty). So, I'm not too worried about protecting the top of the pad - more about providing a good even mounting surface.

BUT - I cannot for the life of me find the drainage channels you speak of. (Lewmar calls them drain holes) The base of the winch is as flat as can be. There are two holes. One where the output gear spindle comes down thru and and one at the bottom of the main spindle (there's a little plastic plate that Lewmar fails to name which is loose enough to let water dribble through) - but no slots or channels etched into bottom of the the base itself.

Apparently your winches have said channels/slots?

The boat's original winches - which I'm replacing - have completely flat base bottoms as well.

Are we talking about water escaping from under the winch base - or down throught the mechanisms and out throught the housing (drum).

The drum does have what look like gear teeth around the inner perimeter of the inside on the bottom which would let water out of the winch - and I could see that someone doing a really sloppy job could obstruct those with over-oozed bedding - but no obvious channel for water to drain out from under the base.

Am I missing something here?

I actually like the idea of making a gasket but that would seem to make the drainage situation worse if the water is supposed to travel under the base.

I've thought that I could leave a toothpick in the bedding bead around the perimter of the base and then pull it out after the bedding cures a bit to create a small weep hole where moisture and water could escape. Thoughts on that?

[CupOTea]

ebb wrote: An alternative is to drill the winch holes only thru the cabin roof (and not thru the interior liner) and squirt in the gel from the top. Probably easier. Then drill thru.

Just saw this, ebb and will do it exactly that way - creates a nice epoxy puck.

thx

[ebb]

My old SouthCoast's are totally flat on the bottom with no exposure to the inside gears and no channels or waterways to lead water away from the interior.
Obviously water that got in would exit top of the mounting plate.
The SouthCoast's, however, are not totally blank on the bottom of the plate. The center is used as a bearing for the turning action of the top (where the winch handle goes). When the top is moved you can see it moving in the bottom of the base. Seems to me this should drain, but there are no races cast into the plate to act as drainage. Can see a split hard gasket put in when mounting to allow trapped water out from the center bearing.

The Andersen's have a large opening in the center of a heavy cast mounting base with total exposure to the interior gears. Really a very large washer! Two sraight channels with very little height are cast into the ring plate. I'd make sure the plate is mounted so the channels drain. Channels is a very big word for some very small drain races.
But because the winch's interior is exposed to any liquid going in and out the channels are there to drain any trapped salt water away.
Therefor don't clog 'em.

I don't have access to Lewmar's. Something I read makes me think that they have special gaskets to use when mounting. DON'T KNOW. That might explain the lack of any small canals in the base? But if the plates are not open to the gears inside and are flat like the old SouthCoast's then any entering and draining is going to be done between the drum and the base plate.
Maybe Lewmar's are like the SC's, not exactly blank on the bottom, but have an active thru bearing in the center that correctly needs to be drained?

Gaskets would mean that the mounting surface has to be completely dead flat, no fudge. So to have a flat mounting surface for the cabin winches is a big plus. If the inside of the liner is hockey-pucked, as you say, then custom molded flat epoxy islands for the winch bases are also possible. I would add chopped strand to the mix.
The pies could be made, like the mast base, out of epoxy soaked meranti. Or good ole mahogany.

[CupOTea]

ebb wrote: "The Andersen's have a large opening in the center of a heavy cast mounting base with total exposure to the interior gears. Really a very large washer! Two sraight channels with very little height are cast into the ring plate. I'd make sure the plate is mounted so the channels drain. Channels is a very big word for some very small drain races."

The Lewmars have a plastic gear retainer (Don Casey's word) at the center of the base that sounds similar - the fit is loose enough (it just lays against the base in a shallow indentation) for water to get through. But then that water has to go somewhere -

Drain races are exactly what I'm looking for and the Lewmar's don't have them as far as I can tell.

A split hard gasket would do it I guess - but I'd have to perfect the pad surface - and I want to go sailing at this point.

It's amazing how little is written on this subject...