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Thread: Commander 147

  1. #46
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Excelsior, Minnesota
    Posts
    325

    Fair e'nuf

    IMHO,
    I BELIEVE your keel is about as fair as any to come out of Pearson. Nobody at Pearson ever taped a baton to the keel to see how fair it was, I doubt they even checked the plug for the mold.
    I BELIEVE the port side will have little likeness to the starboard if you compare the two. The entire cuddy is over 1 1/2" off center on every one of the 1775 Ensigns they built.
    I BELIEVE it doesn't make any difference at all. You could fair it out to perfection and not gain an ounce of boat speed. The keel is not like the finely tuned airfoil on a modern fin keeled boat, more of a blob filled with lead.
    I BELIEVE you could drop the weakest hull ever to come out of Pearson in the 60's into the drink from 30,000 feet and not suffer any damage. The only force I've ever seen to do any real damage to a 60's era Pearson hull is water inside the boat freezing (and that includes coming off a trailer at highway speeds) so I question the need to reinforce.
    I BELIEVE the work you are doing looks very good and the boat already weighs 5500# so a few extra pounds of glass and resin certainly are not going to hurt anything if it helps you sleep at night.
    I BELIEVE that like raising a teenager, you need to pick your battles wisely as not to run out of stream (and money)before the job is done.
    THIS I BELIEVE
    Mike
    C227

  2. #47
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Excelsior, Minnesota
    Posts
    325

    I Also Believe

    I ALSO BELIEVE that I would glass up the exposed end of the lead ballast! (It just don't seem right) Maybe add a drain plug.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    I BELIEVE the best part about a forum is...

    differing opinions. Without differing opinions we cannot take an honest look at anything and make our own considered decision. So let me say thank-you to you Mike and to Ebb and to anyone else that offers their opinions when I ask a question. Because the more view points that are presented the better the decision I can make.

    Mike you make some very valid points. And the fact of the matter is I will most likely run out of boat money before I complete the refit. That is why I am concentrating on labor intensive projects where the material costs are low. This economy has my income way, way down and until it picks up some boat money is going to be scarce.

    My personality drives me to make things as perfect as I am capable of doing. If I ignore something that is obviously wrong to me it drives me nuts every time I look at it from then on. So since I was planning to lay the 6oz glass on the lower part of the keel where the gelcoat was sanded through previously anyway I figured I would address the humps in the keel which was the very first thing I noticed when I first inspected the boat. My post was more about asking the correct approach to fair the keel than if I should do it at all. Trust me I'm nuts enough already and don't need a lumpy keel to look at every time the boat is out of the water to drive me further over the edge.

    As far as glassing in the end of the ballast I had actually cut the biax to do exactly that first and then changed my mind at the last minute. But I may still follow your advice because I believe the foam around the ballast will do more absorbing of water than draining of it. And there is already a plug in the bottom of the keel installed by the previous owner but as he tells it he never got much water out because the foam holds onto the water so well and does not let it drain.

    Mike I am VERY impressed with the work you have done on the Princess as I am with Ebb's workmanship. I will follow your lead on many of the things you have done most importantly the electric inboard drive. But my personality is a little differant from yours so I am pushed to do some things a little differant. I can't help myself it is who I am.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,613

    closing it up

    Let's just mess around with this here for a moment.

    Water, for a number of reasons, mainly because it is the basement of the vessel, will get into the encapsulated ballast keel space - even when the end of the ballast is closed off.

    That's not good for a number of reasons. Not only for boats that get pulled and stay on the hard for awhile but also those that stay in the water year round.

    Imco you can't close off the ballast keel unless a drain is provided. As you know some have actually installed a simple bronze drain that can be opened when the boat is out of the water.
    There could be a good arguement to put that same drain in the bottom of the bilge where you would close off the ballast.
    It's a damned awkward place fpr a mechanical drain thingy.
    It's also the bottom of the bilge.

    Pearson must have seen water captured in the ballast area as a problem and that's why they inelegantly left it open the way they did. I'd agree with them that it's best to keep water out of the bilge and as much as possible out of the laminate.

    Foam in place urethane is the same. Water will get in to it. The boats need a sump as deep as the turn of the fiberglass at the bottom to collect water to be pumped out. Water always gets in - need a relatively easy way to get it out.
    A dusty bilge will help keep the boat smelling sweet.


    Some have filled the space around the encapsulated ballast with two part plastic. Expensive, but it seems to solve that problem. There are some other reasons besides water being stuck in the cavity that imco filling the space is a good thing. Main reason is that adding plastic in there structurally benefits the keel.
    Some of our Ariels and Commanders seem to be pretty thin of hull.

    The whole weight of the boat sits on it's laminate when on the hard. And it sits right where the ballast is. The ballast does NOT form fit the space it sits in. The only thing that keeps the ballast from shifting is the tabbing across the top! Imco filling the space around the ballast creates a more solid base where all two and a half tons plus are concentrated when in the jacks. That's my arguement.


    Painting a barrier coat on the bottom is not strictly necessary for our A/C's.
    But it could lead ultimately to a drier boat. If you do go that route then imco the space around the ballast should be filled.
    IMCO
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..
    WAY LATER EDIT: I'm sure it has occured to some owners, but there is an important safety issue on whether the lead ballast needs to be
    filled/injected with 2-part plastic...or not. If you accidentally get a leak by grinding a hole or cracking the hull in the area of 'encapsulated' ballast that is open to the sump where your pumps are....you have no way of stopping that water from coming in.

    A338 also had a large 'hollow' in the turn of the bottom the keel, I mean under the boat where the ballast is, that had been filled with a bondo like substance. It was fairly easy to dig it out - it was not covered over with fiberglass. It was a Pearson created booboo.
    Fixed it with epoxy & biaxial matt.
    However a flaw is a flaw is a weak area. When on the hard the whole weight of the boat is balanced on this turn of the bilge. This probably led my thinking to epoxy/lead composite...and subsequently over-building the bilge....

    C147 showed the same Pearson anomaly. I'm absolutely sure these were considered cosmetic repairs at the factory. They filled in these caves and delivered them to the dealer painted over. It's pretty obvious that the poor souls laminating the hull with live polyester had some concentration lapses pushing wet roving into deep reaches of the bilge. How many other hulls have these flaws?

    If you are not filling in the encapsulation void with liquid plastic, then make damn sure the ballast chamber is completely isolated from the interior of the boat.
    Last edited by ebb; 06-29-2014 at 08:37 AM.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Posts
    723

    Thumbs up

    Commander 147,

    Looks pretty spiffy, even if maybe not required. I like the idea of an onboard bomb shelter... especially when it only costs a couple bucks and a few pounds.

    FWIW, I personally do not think there is much of a need for this but to each their own... so long as we all adhear to the adage 'at least do no harm'

    Thanks for taking the pictures and sharing your work.


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Well it's been a while so I thought I would post an update.

    The economy is taking it's toll on me but I'm still able to squeeze out some money here and there for the boat. Until recently the weather outside was so hot and humid that I spent time working in the wood shop which I could cool until the weather finally cooled down outside.

    All the wood topsides will be new in this stage of the restoration. And I have most of the pieces fabricated to the point where final fitting, sanding and finishing remains. The new coaming boards are cut and fit but I want to inlay a reinforcement where they tend to crack at the inside corners where the board goes from the deck down into the cockpit itself. They are currently buried in my woodshed and I have not yet taken a picture of them so I will post that later when I install them.

    The two pieces that transition from the coaming board to the cabin sides are made with the exception of the top cut. I want to fit them with the coaming board to make sure I am cutting them off on top exactly where they need to be cut. You can see the current stage of the parts in photo #1 below

    Picture #2 below is the new companionway sill.

    Picture #3 below is the are the boards that the companionway drop boards lock into.

    Picture #4 below is the new handrails I've made which are thicker and slightly taller than the old ones.

    And since I can only post 5 pictures per post I will start another post to show you what I have been doing on the boat since the weather cooled down. But I will need to post that later since I have Christmas decorating to do today.
    Attached Images        

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Some of the recent progress on the glasswork

    First some time ago I decided to glass in the end of the ballast like Mike (Commander 227) suggested. My reasoning went like this. Unlike a boat that has no foam around the lead ballast that can drain easily to the empty back end of the keel, Destiny has foam all around the ballast and this foam sucks up water and dosen't let go of it. So I thought it better to try and keep water out of that foam by sealing the ballast in fiberglass. If water does get in that area what ever will drain out can go out the plug the prior owner had installed in the bottom of the keel when I pull the boat at the end of season. The first picture is of that job.

    Next like most commanders the reinforcement for the backstay chainplate was very short. It left the top 8 inches of the chainplate unsupported. So I cut out and glassed in a new reinforcement for it to bolt to. The new one allows me to cut in half the unsupported distance of the chainplate. Also It is twice as thick as the old one. The second picture shows the old reinforcement.

    The third picture is of the new reinforcement.

    The 4th picture is of the glassed in new reinforcement showing the added bolt 4" higher than was previously possible. It also shows a couple of backer plates I glassed in for the hinges on the lazarette hatch. I glassed in several backer plates in this area but since I'm out of pictures again I will show you all those at a later date.
    Attached Images        

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    A Commander mast step drawing

    for those that wish to use a pivoting mast base. I just drew a cleaner version of the one Rico used to have his step made from. I left out the groove that is needed for the old style mast base where a crain is needed to step the mast.
    Attached Images  

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    How many of you have a suprise like this hiding under your stem head fitting?

    The first picture below is the surprise I found when I removed the stem head fitting. This boat had more leaks than a colander.

    The second picture is a trapazoid I made out of 3/8" thick fiberglass panel that I glued in place with some epoxy last night. Tonight I cut some biaxial mat and glassed it in place (3rd. picture). The biax will not only hold the plug in place but it also locks the deck and the hull together better than it has ever been in that area. Tomorrow night I will cover the existing hole in the front of the bow with some mylar and tape and then drill a hole in the top of the deck where the stem head fitting will later cover it up. Then I will mix up some epoxy with micro fibers to strengthen it and pour it into the the area closed off by the plug I installed.
    Attached Images        

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,613
    Nice!

    Will you be able to line up the long bolt?
    A338 has one long bolt that essentially makes the stemfitting impossible to be torn off (without taking the whole nose with it. )
    Could say the stemfitting does a secondary job clamping stem to deck together.
    Also has the two lower bolts that only go thru the stem.
    Our stem fitting is a great design!

    The plug/bulkhead you have there imco could be tabbed to the hull to insure the upgrade does as you say: hold everything together better.

    Bet you had a great time working up in there!!!!!


    Really enjoy your photos and work!
    Last edited by ebb; 12-22-2009 at 08:44 AM.

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Yea, imagine wiggling up into the inside point of a cone...

    and you will get a feel for what it was like working up there in the point of the bow. I can't wait to start on the recore. I will actually for the first time be able to stand in an upright position to do the job at hand.

    Ebb the first pictures may not have been easy to see but I did glass the trapazoid to the deck and the hull. The first picture below is the templates I used to cut the biax that I used. The Y shaped one went in first and the top dark brown part is on the bottom of the deck, the middle light brown part is attached to the trapazoid plug and the bottom darker brown part is attached to the hull where the bolts for the stem head go through. The smaller template was for the second piece of biax that tied the plug to the sides of the hull.

    The second picture below shows the long bolt in place so you can get an idea of how it all fits together.
    Attached Images    

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Glued up the first of two tillers tonight...

    Both of the tillers that came my commander were replacements and neither one worked very well. One was only about 4" longer than the original but instead of a slight rise it had a drop in it and it was a knee knocker. The other while it had a similar rise to the origianl it was about 12" too long. It took up a lot of cockpit space to use it. So tonight I cut up one of the old combing boards and resawed it into strips 5/16" thick. I built a jig to match the profile in the manual and glued the first one up. I figure it can't hurt to have a spare so I'm going to make two while I'm doing it.

    If anyone wants the jig when I'm done with it and is willing to pay the UPS to get it let me know and it's yours.
    Attached Images    

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Unhappy You know sometimes I act like a rank amateur

    Just blissfully blundering along like I have never built anything before confident what I'm doing is going to turn out just right.......NOT.....

    I know better than to build a jig and do a glue up before testing my template to verify it's really what I want. But did I do that?????? NO

    So tonight after work I removed the glue up from the jig (first picture below) and was getting ready to surface the two faces so I could lay the template on it and mark the layout for the bandsaw, I all of a sudden realize I never bolted the template into the rudder head to make sure I was going to be happy with the final result. When I did my heart sunk..... I was sure after looking at the two tillers that came with my commander and looking at the layout of the original in the manual that I would be happy with the original. And that is why I blissfully proceeded without doing what I would normally do and test every step along the way to make sure I liked the direction I was going. But when I bolted it in I realized it was not going to end up at a comfortable height for me and I was going to have to go back to square one.

    The second picture below is the two tiller templates bolted into the tiller head. The higher one is the one based on the manual and the lower one is the one I'm going to start making now.
    Attached Images    

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,613

    practice

    A master woodworker, famous for his furniture, once said to me:

    It's all how you go from one mistake to your next mistake.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Thanks Ebb

    I needed that....

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