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Thread: Commander 147

  1. #256
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    One particular modification that you have made, internal halyard masthead blocks, is one i am definitely interested. Once I get some headspace for this modification I will be in touch, most probably in April/may when I attack the mast and spars. One question that I did have; it would seem likely that the halyard could get caught over the top or to the side of the block, during squally weather which would most surely cut the halyard in quick order. Had you considered a SS 'chock' welded on and bridging the entryway for the halyard? I admit this could add leverage of a twisted halyard to bend the entire assembly causing more serious problems...

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbonsoup View Post
    One particular modification that you have made, internal halyard masthead blocks, is one i am definitely interested. Once I get some headspace for this modification I will be in touch, most probably in April/may when I attack the mast and spars. One question that I did have; it would seem likely that the halyard could get caught over the top or to the side of the block, during squally weather which would most surely cut the halyard in quick order. Had you considered a SS 'chock' welded on and bridging the entryway for the halyard? I admit this could add leverage of a twisted halyard to bend the entire assembly causing more serious problems...
    I don't think it is possible for the halyard to get hung up on the edge of the sheeve (where there is only approx. 1/16" of clearance on each side) or on the top because it is rounded and sloping down so I can't really see a need to do what you are suggesting (if I understand correctly). Of course only time will tell for sure when she is getting used.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  3. #258
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    I have installed two of the halyard block set ups from Jerry's drawing on different boats. It is a great mod... Have not had any issues. One change I would consider how ever is to make the jib halyard block lower than the main. The reason is twofold; one is to increase clearance between the block and the furler's luff tube and if it is a couple inches lower it will eliminate the need for a halyard wrap preventer. Like I said it works well as is, but if I were to have another made I would lower the jib block.
    Mike
    C227

  4. #259
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    Feb 2013
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    Oklahoma City, OK
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    Hi Jerry, Thanks for your reply on A 157. Its not mine yet but should be soon. There is a commander here in OKC at the OCBC. I have always admired the boat. Only interested in an Ariel over the Commander because I would like to try a little offshore stuff with one. Your boat is nice. I've not seen one with primary and secondary winches but I'm kind of a newby when it comes to these boats.

  5. #260
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    Sep 2008
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    Well, things have not been going as fast on Destiny as I was hoping for because my Mom passed away the end of January and I have had to spend a couple of weeks in Wisconsin first dealing with the funeral and then with the estate. In addition a lot of my time at home has been absorbed with issues associated with it all. But I have made some progress so I thought I would do an update.

    First, when I bought Destiny the previous owner had hit a rock with her and tore up the bottom of the keel. So I took her to the local marina so they could lift her off the trailer and set her on stands which would allow me to work on the bottom of her keel. I ground out all the damage and glassed it back in. Then I layed up 4 more layers of 1708 biax along the entire length of the bottom of the keel as additional reinforcement. I faired that out and at the same time faired out some of the original irregularities in the side of the keel.

    Getting Destiny off her trailer also allowed me to get the old rudder off so I could start my electric drive installation. I have her back home now and have rounded up the parts I will need for the new rudder and the electric drive. I have the new shaft log, prop shaft, cutlass bearing, stuffing box, and prop. The rest of the electric drive I bought a long time ago with the exception of the barreries. In addition I bought the marine bronze to make up the new rudder shaft and had it fabricated for the new rudder. The picture of the parts (laying on top of the old rudder) is below. The 3/8" rod was drilled, tapped and brazed into the 1" shaft.

    I plan to follow Chance's method of building the rudder. I hope I can live up the the level of quality of fabrication he showed us.
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    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  6. #261
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    Jerry,

    Sorry to hear about the passing of your mother. Balancing all of our obligations is an art that I know you excel at. If it's only months or a few years until your boat's complete I'm sure it will have taken the right amount of time.

    Ben

  7. #262
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    Thanks Ben

    I appreciate your kind words.

    I am trying very hard to get as much done as possible before the summer heat and humidity kicks back in again so I am racing against the clock. I really really want Destiny in the water this fall when sailing season kicks off here in Florida.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  8. #263
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    Mock up

    Trying to get a handle on where to drill the hole for the shaft log. This is one side of the plywood that will sandwhich the J-bolts attached to the rudder shaft.
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    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  9. #264
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    Nice work Jerry! My only thought is that Constellation style rudder is more vulnerable than the original design. During a low tide grounding that rudder will make a pivot point on the bottom and induce all sorts of stresses. The original design was rounded off to prevent rudder damage when a sailboat is rocking it's keel in the mud, common in my parts. I find it hard to believe adding that small addition to the bottom of the rudder helps the boat sail better. Weather helm is controlled by sail trim.

    Ben

  10. #265
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    Rudder shape

    Ben thanks for your critique. Getting help from you and the others here to avoid making a screwup is one of the best parts of a forum like this. You are not alone in your thoughts about how my new rudder should be shaped. A very good friend of mine had similar thoughts about how I should shape the new rudder. The pictures below are his thoughts on how to add a little rudder surface down low but still keep it from hitting bottom. What do you think of his design?

    You know this is the first time I have ever done a boat restoration like this and it seems like I have been forced to do every major component twice. The first time I learn what I should have done and the second time I get it as close to right as I can.

    Here in Florida all the water is skinny so keeping the rudder off the bottom is very important.
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    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  11. #266
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    Sep 2001
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    rudder shape

    A place to check is a Cape Dory site.
    Might say that Alberg designed little ships with the smell of Marblehead salt water in his studio.
    So he would no doubt have small boat sailors in mind.

    CAPEDORY25D is imco pretty much his bringing the Ariel into the future. I believe the boat is
    from 1978. This design, a slightly more matronly version of the Ariel is nearly the same weight,
    length, and width as the Ariel.

    He designed it with the constellation style rudder. Which incidently appears in dashed lines on a lines drawing (Manual pg 144) of the Ariel.
    Document is not signed - it is dated: November 1961 - from the same Carl A. Alberg studio in Marblehead....... 1961 ! !

    I don't have any CapeDory lines to do closeup comparisons.
    But Alberg, 15 years later, did draw his day sailor/racer CAPEDORY TYPHOON with the round trailing edge of wooden boat heritage. I don't know if the daysailor's rudder is the more simple plank design.
    Notable, but only looking at computer images, is that the bottom of the Typhoon rudder seems to be drawn below the keel line. Not rounded up as quickly as the A/C. The rounded shapes are different.

    It is often pointed out that when you ground on mud or sand with a keelhung rudder, that an ear shape
    design to the appendage might be more likely to be freed to help manuever the vessel - and protect the blade.
    So depending on your cruising ground, you can choose your rudder if, as Ben says, there is no discernable difference in speed or maneuverablity.



    It evidently did make a difference to Olin on the 1964 Constellation (Sparkman/Stephens) when they first raced it out there.*
    Given the dates, I'm assuming Olin called up Carl and asked him what he would do to get a 12meter to go faster.
    By the numbers, it's obvious we must credit Carl with the invention of the constellation rudder. But of course!

    While the rounded rudder looks like a dragger on the '70's CapeDory Typhoon, it looks like the straight bottom rudders on family CapeDories are canted UP slightly form the line of the keel bottom. The trailing corner shows no rounding on CD's, while the dashed Ariel has considerable.

    There is a lot of airfoil (lift) designing and experimentation lavished on modern rudders.
    I haven't visited CapeDory sites much - but I would assume the '70's rudders are a fiberglass composite of some sort and are foiled.

    I'm persuaded that streamlining the rudder into a constellation aspect at least on paper will
    add something to the efficiency of the marvelous streamlining of the Ariel/Commander hull. Who knows how much.?
    With similar blade area the foil shaped flat bottom constellation couldn't be less speedy than its predecessor.

    I wonder, however, that the rudder surface being in effect LOWER with the constellation that
    more control over the boat going downwind is experienced?
    Arguement being that lower down there is less water turmoil created by water dragging along the hull.

    Racers are minmalist. Guess that water surface is right on the designer's edge. A day racer interested in the fastest straight lines
    might calculate what the designed surface areas of the two rudders are.
    We have both to compare on the A/C - which is INCREDIBLY UNIQUE.
    An over-the-shoulder view of Alberg at his drawing table! Can SEE what he's thinking about with the two concepts.
    Use those figures as datum for calculating changes....... maybe add a little more area for good measure. Can always grind it off.
    I'm thinking more area translates to a harder tiller.

    Jerry's invention is very interesting and ORIGINAL (of course!).
    And, why not? Let's see what happens, right?
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................................
    *Constellation was a S&S 12meter Rule (39.37ft) America'sCup defender in 1964.
    TwelveMeters experienced radical design changes each time they raced, just as the America's Cup challengers today.

    The rounded rudder shape morphed into hard edge and hard cornered airfoil and never looked back!
    Last edited by ebb; 04-06-2013 at 03:50 PM.

  12. #267
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    I am all for experimentation Ebb, but I do think we should look at all innovation critically. The Constellation's rudder was designed for better helm control downwind in a 12 meter. And the straight bottom edge and crisp corners of the rudder helped reduce drag. It was also intrinsically designed with the keel to archive it's performance breakthroughs. I sort of think adding such a rudder to our boats is bending to fashion over practicality. The Cape Dory rudders were an attempt to keep the Alberg boats contemporary in an era of detached rudders and fin keels. Bet they sail windward not too different from our much older boats.

  13. #268
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    Well guys unless someone can tell me why it is a bad idea I think I will probably go with my friend Tom's suggestion since it is a compromise that allows me to add a little more rudder down low like I wanted to but also keeps the bottom of the rudder out of the mud which in Florida could be a real possibility.

    Speak now or forever hold your peace since I don't want to build this thing 3 times.........twice is enough.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  14. #269
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    I would be alright with the revised design. Although I'd like to see closer tolerances to the hull at the top of the rudder and a tighter radius on the back edge to bottom edge curve.

    Ben

    The skipper of the Constellation in the 1964 America's Cup was Robert N. Bavier Jr. who's father Robert Sr. was the second owner of the S-Boat Tern!

    Last edited by Ariel 109; 04-06-2013 at 04:51 PM.

  15. #270
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    Ben, Amazing find of the actual race!
    Can't argue with you, it's like how you like your coffee.
    And coffee surely was the fashionable thing once before it became cultural.

    So using the evidence at hand we find Alberg penning the yet to be fashionable un-named rudder onto the Ariel lines back in 1961, at least two or three years before it appeared on the 12meter.

    The A/C rudder of bronze and mahogany, as I see it, a holdover from good old wood boat hertitage......is a folk rudder. It is intuitive, honed and perfected over time on countless vessels by countless waterboat professionals.
    Probably count on one hand how many builders in the old days water tank tested models of a working sailboat they built for a customer.
    And have to confess my bible once was/is Chapelle's Small Sailing Craft, so at least I'm aware of your passion.

    So here we have this fashionable new rudder sitting on an Alberg drawing of an Ariel/Commander in nineteen sixty-one.
    1961, right at the cusp of Ariels and Commanders coming into existence.
    If you believe the provenance in Alberg's hand then you have to ask why the round rudder was chosen?
    I think the original A/C rudder is a masterpiece of the dying art of wooden boat building. We can argue these rudders outlast any fashionable frp/ss rudders that have appeared on countless watercraft since.
    Imco the Pearson cousins got a better deal on the traditional rudders, I wouldn't be surprised to read they were farmed out to a woodworking boat shop that had been making rudders for 50years..... you know. I think it was a dollar choice made that didn't give us the hard edged rudders that needed to be developed more scientifically. And did shortly there after.

    Can't argue that airfoil shapes to the rudder surface is fashionable.
    BUT it is more like a Darwinian mutation because the change is way more efficient at moving a shape through water.
    It appears on stand-alone rudders, and probably had to be applied to keel hung rudders, by back thinking. Since it is the slender half of a wingfoil on the end of a keel.
    And I'm certain that Alberg was aware of the changes happening in his field. Full keels and internal ballast by the time A/Cs appeared were already going out of fashion - altho it took a decade or more for the wooden-boat-translated-to-plastic way of boat design moved wholly into recreational boats for the middle class. Where I'll grant you: fashion sleight of hand and hype went arm in arm to the bank.

    Alberg's fame rested on safe, wholesome, fullkeel sailboats - and we know he was a genius and a tyrant for that style of blue water boats. The board rudder was on its way out and what the speedos found out about rudder efficiency couldn't be denied. In fact those advances were more to what Nature had already figured out since fish swam in the sea.
    Last edited by ebb; 04-08-2013 at 08:25 AM.

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