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Thread: Commander 147

  1. #211
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Brooksville, FL
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    Thanks Ben

    While I still have a lot to do for the first time since I started I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I can't wait.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  2. #212
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    Sep 2008
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    Brooksville, FL
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    Mast modifications

    I've been trying to figure out the best way to modify Destiny's mast to allow for the halyards to be internal and at the same time replace the large original sheave at the top.

    What I came up with and what I am in the process of buying parts for now is not a very expensive change but I believe it will be a significant improvement.

    I'm having 2 new cheek plates made out of 16ga. 304 S.S. per the drawing below which will allow me to pin two new Harken 6062 sheaves between them one for the main halyard and one for the jib halyard. The two 1/4" holes in the new cheek plates below the new sheaves are for two 1/4" bolts that will have spacers between the cheek plates to help maintain the spacing between them.

    This is the link for the new sheaves.

    http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.u...?409Z56LC4EMX2

    Also I made progress on the deck recore. I glassed over the balsa core for the second section of the recore this weekend. But before I did that I made replacement chainplate plugs out of UHMW plastic so I did not have to try and lay the glass around the chainplates. I inserted these temporary plugs in the chainplate slots and cut them flush with the top of the deck prior to laying the glass. This kept the epoxy from filling the slots for the chainplates and still allowed me to easily lay the glass in place. The second picture below shows one of the plugs in place before the glass was layed down.

    I can pull them now and when I finish fairing this section I will use my Fein Multimaster with a flat blade to cut up through the glass. Then I will use a router with a v-groove bit to widen the slot and create a caulking recess around the chainplate.

    The last picture is after I layed the glass. I was really disappointed when I went out to look at the job this morning. You might be able to see my issue halfway between the forward lower chainplate area and the the upper chainplate area. Somehow I ended up with a bubble about 2-1/2" in diameter in the glass. I don't know if I had a low spot there that I did not get faired properly or what caused it but I did not see a problem while I was laying up the glass and it was not until I went out to look at it today that that I saw it. Now I will need to grind that area back out and redo it.
    Attached Images      
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  3. #213
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    Jan 2004
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    Scarborough, Maine
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    Hey Jerry, bummer on the bubble! But, I wonder if this is an appropriate timefor the "drill and fill" method? You could drill 2 holes and inject resin in 1 until it comes out the other. You know you have good material and no moisture in those ares.

    Also, I'm curious if you're planning on doing something like this before you paint your decks and replace the hardware?

    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...128-Mount-Pads
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  4. #214
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    Mike

    Unfortunately the bubble actually bubbled up and there is a small dome shape there now. So filling the void is not a good way to go because even after fairing out the top it would still be visable in the finished product. I'm better off just grinding it out and patching the area so it will never be seen. I appreciate you offering a possible solution though.

    As far as your second idea, I had not seen those posts previously. I like that idea and think it is something I need to seriously consider. I do not plan to put the stanchions back on and I will not have life lines on Destiny but I will have a bow pulpit and possibly a stern pulpit (the jury is still out on the stern pulpit) and I'm getting ready to recore at the bow pulpit next so it would be a perfect time to do that. Thanks for the link I appreciate it.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  5. #215
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    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
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    What my new furler looks like....

    Well actually a good sailing friend of mine asked me to build him a couple of window seats for his house in Charlotte Harbor. The deal was he would pay for the materials and I would supply the labor and in exchange he would buy me a furler. So these are the window seats I built him and in the process I learned how to do cane work which I intend to incorporate in Destiny's interior.

    And the link is to the Harken MKIV unit 0 that I'm getting as part of the deal.

    http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.u...=409Z56LC6PSTM
    Attached Images    
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  6. #216
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Jerry,
    Just tossing something out here on your internal halyard project, probably done already.

    Suppose you made those plates into a sleeve box by welding top and bottom shut (except of course where lines lead down inside off the sheeves)
    you could place the sheeves more inboard IN the mast. In other words just have the sheeve grooves out far enough to keep lines off the mast.

    You could then attach the sleeve with rt angle tabs in the four corners to the mast outside.
    Could also close off more of the vertical opening in the sleeve if wanted.
    Curve the plates out far enough to protect the sheeves, but radius the plate edges to meet the mast top and bottom.
    Less windage
    Last edited by ebb; 03-05-2012 at 04:23 PM.

  7. #217
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    May 2008
    Location
    Excelsior, Minnesota
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    325
    Nice looking furler Jerry. I love the barter system.
    Where are we at with our project? you've been a little quiet lately. Hopefully because you've been so busy under the boat shed.
    Mike

  8. #218
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
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    Nice window seats Jerry. Always good to explore new techniques, like you did with the caining. When you get real good at it I'll send you all the classic vintage Thonet chairs I've pulled out of the trash in Manhattan over the years. I'm with Mike on the barter system.

    Ben
    Last edited by Ariel 109; 03-06-2012 at 04:35 AM.

  9. #219
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    Jan 2004
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    Scarborough, Maine
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    I've said it before, but I wish I had just an once of the talent you guys have. Nice work as always, Jerry!
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  10. #220
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    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
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    Guys I'm sorry for the slow response....

    Been a little crazy here with very little "free" time.

    Ebb

    If I radius the edges of the cheek plates (which is how I had them made) I cannot weld the assembly into a solid box that slides into the mast without making the vertical slot that is cut out of the mast very wide and thereby making the top of the mast weak.

    Your suggestion is making me contemplate more options however because I am not pleased with the way things are going together with my current plan. And some sort of box assembly that bolts into the mast would strengthen the top of the mast and allow for better placement of the sheeves. I'm back to the drawing board.

    Mike

    Sadly no I have not made a lot of progress on Destiny lately. With my friend Tim's project, both of my daughters buying new homes and the moving process I need to help with not to mention the time spent with the grandkids Destiny has been sitting idle for a while. I was able to accomplish a few things that did not require large blocks of my time. I had the 50 or so misc. holes in the mast that I don't want there going forward welded up. I also had the cheek plates made but need to go back to the drawing board on that (see above). I had the fixed goosneck and pivoting vang brackets made (see pictures below) and got the new standing rigging bought and here. As soon as both of my daughters are completely moved and settled I am itching to get back to working on her though.

    Ben

    Thanks for the complement, the caning process is not as hard as you might imagine. The single biggest secret to making the job come out well is soaking the cane in water for a minimum of 30 minutes prior to installation. This expands the cane and makes it plyable. If it is not soft enough it will break the fibers as you roll the cane into the groove. And as it dries after the cane has been installed it shrinks back and stretches tight. So tight that in my learning process I had to remake one panel. The cane actually cracked the rail in one of the panels by stretching tight as it dried.

    Mbd

    Thank you also for the complement.

    Pictures below are 1.) the cheek plates I had made. 2.) The new pivoting vang bracket of which there are two because my vang will be cascading. and 3.) The new fixed goosneck bracket
    Attached Images      
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  11. #221
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,617

    sheeve sleeve

    Jerry,
    Nice gooseneck fitting!!!

    No, by radius I meant on the flat of the plates.
    So that when you look at them in the mast slot they would project out from the mast in a curve.
    They would in effect be long cheeks for your sheeves. Top and bottom of curve would begin and end at mast.

    So if they were welded up into a sleeve as ebb has done they would slip thru without a problem.

    Of course the problem may be in how wide the sheeves are
    and how wide the sleeve has to be to accomodate them.

    My sleeve-box is at the welders right now, so I can't ckeck on it's actual width.
    Got a new sheeve that is 5/8' thick delrin. It is 6 5/8"D which matches the sleeve dimension. The groove is made to cradle 1/2" line.
    If I get it right the halyard will not run afoul of any hard edges up there. We'll see!

    The aluminum sleeve I believe is a skoch wider than 7/8".
    The original slot in the mast is between 5/8" and 3/4" depending on where you put the tape.
    Widening that slot that much doesn't seem to be too radical.
    Altho I will admit the original slot itself is an engineering problem.
    Mast showed a little enlargement of bolt holes. Have found a bolt with a smooth shank long enough so no
    thread bears on the holes. May have to add a couple bushings to the mast walls later.

    Argument is that the welded sleeve adds some structure to the slot if the slip is tight all round.
    The thru-bolt gets support in four places: mast wall & sleeve.

    With welded top and bottom, the sleeve can be fastened to the mast with clips if thought necessary.
    It's removable and helps keep rain and mud swallows out of mast.
    Last edited by ebb; 03-10-2012 at 10:49 AM.

  12. #222
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    Sep 2008
    Location
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    You know Ebb pictures of what you have done sure would be helpful.

    But I get what you are talking about now. According to the manual the original designed width of the sheeve slot in the mast was 13/16" but like yours mine was not that wide. I'm using two Harken halyard sheeves model number 6062 which are 1-1/2" diameter and 11/16" thick. If I use 16 ga. S.S. for the sides of the box assembly my total thickness should be just under the 13/16" designed width of the mast slot. That would be a goal for me since the head stay and the back stay are connected above this entire area. And depending on the design of the box assembly the way it is attached to the mast could also add additional strength to the top of the mast.

    If I get a chance this weekend I think I will spend some time with my CAD software and see what I come up with.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  13. #223
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Strength at the top of the mast IS a very real problem with our old craft.
    Certainly A-338's weathered stick.

    EG that jib-block tang that was added by Pearson above the sheeve caused total corrosion from the top of the sleeve box clear to the end of the extrusion, 2 5/8" of nothing. Aluminum eaten away. I was unable to tell if a former owner reattached the fitting is such a way as to cause such extreme destruction, that he might be responsible for, rather than Pearson. It may also be a problem others have, and don't know about.

    What is the fix? There are pros and cons on welding. I hear there is a real problem with the welding interface changing the alloy into something weaker, and don't recommend doing it. Also hear that any annealing will come back to its original temper ON ITS OWN. Don't know - but do know it would take an expert with a TIG and $$$ to weld in a new curved over-lapping section. At the moment the top has been cosmetically sculpted closed with LabMetal so that it looks like nothing ever happened. LabMetal is fun to work with, seems to stick well, but is not structural.

    I may add a thin glass patch inside the mast to backup the non-repair.
    By way of tying the 'sides' of the mast top together across the front, I am adding a curved piece of 16g s.s. over the front and around to the sides. It will attach to good mast metal and around the masthead fitting. Like an eye patch. That outta do it.

    I don't understand why that tang had to be added there in such an awkward way.
    Can't the jib block be hung from the 'crane' portion of the masthead fitting? What's correct, Jerry?
    It's a little tight but with a long narrow shackle it might work.... or a toggle on a pin....haven't worked it out yet.
    If you still have the old head fitting, something could be fabricated and bolted between the 'ears' - some rectangular tube maybe? - positioned in a convenient way to hang the jib block. Again haven't experimented.
    I have a Ballenger fabricated copy of the cast aluminum crane fitting with spaced double plates across the top and open all the way thru unlike the old one.
    Is your advice counter open today?

    Noticed the holes you have in your plates for the new sheeves.
    It would take a bit of work - but angled 'clips' could be made that have a small stud or toe on one leg
    that engage a similarly placed hole in the plate and have the other leg of the clip bent around outside to screw onto the mast.
    So once the clip is screwed in, the toe engages the hole in the plate.
    Un-screwing would allow moving the clip sideways inward a bit to move it out of the hole. SO, just holes in the plate, easy to remove. Idea in progress!
    Don't think this can be done with your current design.
    The idea is to create a lock down for that huge slot by finding a way to grip the plates tight to each side of the mast.
    Like having columns on either side of the slot.

    Aren't we supposed to be able to dangle the boat from the top of the mast? ? ?
    Last edited by ebb; 03-11-2012 at 08:42 AM.

  14. #224
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Redesigned pully bracket assembly

    Well I redesigned the mast head pully block assembly and I think this one will get the job done. Once installed i believe it will actually strengthen the top of the mast and it can be easily removed for inspection and repair.

    The first picture is the bracket I had the local sheet metal shop make. The second shows how it goes into the masthead. The third shows how it will be heald in place during use.
    Attached Images      
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  15. #225
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Excelsior, Minnesota
    Posts
    325
    Sweat! That is a very elegant solution.
    Mike

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