Hey Kendall, you're scaring me!
No over-bore down there!
It's just fiberglass, what there is of it, NO CORE.
My fix:
Scrape the cavity with carbide scrapers (Bacho) Remove any loose stuff.
Make paper patterns (Really!) of the port side and the starboard side (obviously they are flipflops)
Allow ONLY one 90 degree turn into the ends and on the bottom. NO U TURNS, they get out of control.
Cut XMATT so that each panel you put in laps only over the other side's panel in the end and the bottom of the keel.
Xmatt is stiff enough initially so that after you have cut it to the paper pattern size you can FIT it into the cavity AND take it out again. You will want to remove darts of material where it wants to bunch. I would put in at least 2 layers of 24oz. What you are doing is also a dry run. Epoxy has a short open time after mix. In the cup it is way shorter than when spread thin. Epoxy when it's cool.
Lay out some plastic film, lay the cut-to-fit Xmatt on it and wet it out with 2part epoxy. Drape it into place in the keel which has also been wet out (IMPORTANT, make sure you are putting wet material on a wet surface. Only way you can get a mate, with no holidays.) Unlike woven fiberglass, you CAN reposition Xmatt, just not too many times befor it starts falling apart.
Use a throw-away brush to poke the Xmatt into the corners. I go so far as to sharpie pen hash marks where the turns are to be on the fabric. It makes positioning easier when it is wet. If you feel you can put the second layer on top of the first wet layer, go for it. Otherwise let it stiffen up some, or come back the next day. Next day will no doubt require some prep. I like to alternate one side's lap over the other for the strength it makes. Use the brush to poke the fabric into the epoxy. If you have created a bridge with the fabric over a depression, slice the wet fabric with a utility knife and pat it down. Patch it later if needed, or paste on a piece of scrap.
If the surface is too weird and you know you won't be able to get a solid no holiday layer, you can mix up some epoxy and fumed silica gel to smear over the problem 'cavity' just before the fabric Quickly. Just pat it flat with your latex gloved hand.
After your reinforcing layer(s) are in, then you want to add a bunch of mishmash (2part laminating epoxy - f. silica - 1/4"/1/2" chopped strand fiberglass.) Mix it stiff so you can sculpt it over the area where the gudgeon fastenings go - so the the fastenings are not exposed in the keel cavity. Tab in a piece of Xmatt or fabric over the glob so that it ends up relatively smooth.
Xmatt leaves a rough surface. After it is set you may want to smooth it with the gel mix. A good smoother is the pliable green applicator that seems to be everywhere.....you can spread the mix on really smooth so that there is little work to do after it is set.
After this work is done then you can add a 'garboard' drain plug. Make sure it is bronze.
You now have a nice sump to collect water and to have a bilge pump or two.
I'm in the full access camp for boat maintenance. Foam makes access impossible and creates more problems than it cures. Fit a lid over the area so socks won't get in.
All imco, hope some of this is helpful, sorry if it seems patronizing.
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It's impossible to know what has been in and out of the bilge in 45 years. To know what oils and waxes and stuff have been there - ARE STILL THERE.
NO, can't use solvents - out of the question. Scrape, abrade, grind - these are impossible but not lethal. The Fein tool will allow abrading and scraping near to the bottom of the keel. Any solvent will screw up the epoxy or any coating going in there next.
Must use 100% solids NO SOLVENT epoxy - unless you want to die. Do not use West System epoxys here. Some of their epoxies blush and some use formaldehyde in the hardener side (205). Set up ventilation under the cockpit when working there.
No the shoe does not appear to have the same issue. At least not on my boat. I looks like they added some extra roving saturated with resin in the area of the shoe. Just the same I am going to build it up more in that area just to make sure I have no future problems.
Ebb
What would be a good way to fix the water intrusion in that area so you don't have to rely on strictly sealant in an underwater location like that? There must be some way other than digging out all the foam like I am.
I guess there has to be an each individual boat fix, a good enough fix.
Then there's ebb's way.
Water gets in obviously thru the laminate.
Thru stupid everetts like we've just seen with the gudgeon fastenings entering and going thru the interior OPEN SPACE of the keel.
AND 'intrusion' like all other water that gets in from above.
Water is going to go to the lowest point, no matter what.
Water is the UNIVERSAL SOLVENT. Boaters know that.
There's no film, caulk, sealant, adhesive or FOAM that will keep the water out.
I believe what you are doing is the correct solution. If you have integrity in the laminate in the keel area, great! I might just paint in waterproofing with some super garage floor polyurethane rubber type stuff. The kind that advertise themselves as water blockers. Not over foam.
Adding a layer of 6oz fiberglass to the outside crazed gelcoat is good too. The cloth is added to create thickness for your barrier. Put on in the hollow of the bilge it is easy to make the reinforcement disappear with fillers and fairing.
My gut feeling that if you want strength too, it's better - but MUCH more awkward - to add it inside.
I don't see how a fix can be freehanded with fouled foam in place.
338's heel fitting was attached to crumpled glass and crystallized plastic. Only two pins/bolts were thru something 'solid' - and that solid was pure no glass polyester resin - from the factory! It's a bad place down there to get good lamination - with correct fabric to resin ratio.
Anybody's Ariel/Commander has to keep this in mind when upgrading. But that's another thread.
I've finished taking out the foam I can get to. What is left is on the sides and under the lead ballast and there is still water in that little bit of foam also. So my plan is to finish my sanding on the outside so the glass can let out moisture that way and burn a 40 watt light bulb inside to get everything dry.
After I get it all dry and build up the bottom of the keel some to further bury the heel fitting bolts I want to add a bulkhead with a cutout in the bottom so water can get back and forth under it starting just in front of the heel fitting to strengthen the keel in that area. When you added these bulkheads were they plywood that you covered in cloth and epoxy or some other material?
Sounds good!
Those are crispy epoxy/Xmatt tacos. 5 or six layers of Xmatt. Under 1/4"
They are that dark because I was using some very old dark amber hardner.
Easy to make on Mylar sheet*.
Build up the panel with same size Xmatt material wetting out each layer as you stack.
You can jigsaw the 'bulkheads' to fit out of this custom sheet.
Then fill the corners with generous curved fillets, then tab with Xmatt strips to keep it all amalgamated - and also to spread the point load out on the contact surface - because we're not supposed to put hard panels in at 90 degrees to the hull.
Been avoiding the end of the keel issue. If we are getting water in there, and there is no IF, there's water entering there - then the argument might be to let the water out. And let it out easy - on A338 that end of the encapsulated ballast was OPEN.
SO, leave it open!
A338 had no added foam, so the bilge was free to collect water. There was no attempt by Everett to close off the end of the ballast in A338. In reality A338's ballast keel should have been free of water since it runs out to the keel bilge. This was not the case. (Another thread.)
I decided to fill the ballast keel void by injecting epoxy thru holes drilled from outside. I was lucky to remember to close off the open end before I'd gone too far in the epoxy filling. Later the nice straight blkhd was added once the height was established. And that became the end of the cabin sole.
You can buy fiberglass sheet in various thicknesses from McMasterCarr. It's polyester and seems after sanding to glue like a champ. I'm using 1/8". Could make the argument that something this thin would work for these small blkhds if they are filleted and tabbed and - as they do - are incorporated into a horizontal panel.
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*After stacking the 5 or 6 or 7 wet Xmatt pieces, top with mylar film and a very flat panel of some sort. You'll be making a beautiful flat consistent sheet - try to pull the air bubbles out once the second sheet is on top using the green spreader thingy - on TOP of the mylar.
The sheet peels right off once the epoxy is set.
If you build up some weight /pressure on that MDO(?) panel, you'll squeeze more of that expensive epoxy out BUT you'll make an even stronger more dense sheet.
Left overs can be used as backing 'blocks'.
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Somebody, maybe the factory, since they seem to have done (and didn't do) so many different things back there in the keel on Commanders and Ariels... somebody filled the very back narrow deep end and the bottom in A338 making a sort of ramp, actually a ramp, so that water collecting in the bilge ends up forward at the back of the ballast keel. In the Ariel it's just about perfect as the sump is under the bridge but accessible. If an inboard was there the bilge water would still be accessible, sort of, and in the lowest part of the vessel. Way to go.
This shows you can create a collecting point whereever you want. The filler seemed rock hard to me so I assumed the mass was made of mat and roving left-overs and resin. It also had the effect of adding some beef to the bottom of the keel and the rudder shoe area.
I'm in the same position as you are.
It's just that I've been at it longer, longer, longer.
In the beginning and through the decades I've bought many books on every boat subject. I like books.
Very few concerning the actual work with products have been useful.
Which is natural enough since the reader has to supply his own experience.
There are standouts. But generally books are general.
Have my own brand of timidity to deal with - when it comes to new processes. I work alone on A338. It's my Zen.
Imagine I'm being helpful when I drag on about things Ariel. Trying to be specific.
Wished many times that somebody had clewed me in to the processes that I hope I'm sharing. Experience is public, we are compelled to trade info.
Hope everybody SHARES their experiences and observations and revelations - whatever they are,
Have been told by Admiral Bill that Ebb can be difficult to understand.
It's shop talk converted into language. It would be much better and simpler to see processes.
BUT, thinking that youTube videos are the answer, many instructional ones I seen seem to be as useless as printed talk. Whatever the knack is to put forward a TIP, I'll keep trying until the ax falls.
Never an expert. Just reformulating experiences.
AND always In My Considered Opinion. B.S. It's just the backboard, you have the ball.
Discussion is the life blood of a Forum. It's back and forth repartee. We have a great community and great boats to talk about. BEST SHOW AND TELL ON THE NET.
Actually we are all in the same Boat.
[criminny he does go on and on....]
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