I guess there has to be an each individual boat fix, a good enough fix.
Then there's ebb's way.
Water gets in obviously thru the laminate.
Thru stupid everetts like we've just seen with the gudgeon fastenings entering and going thru the interior OPEN SPACE of the keel.
AND 'intrusion' like all other water that gets in from above.
Water is going to go to the lowest point, no matter what.
Water is the UNIVERSAL SOLVENT. Boaters know that.
There's no film, caulk, sealant, adhesive or FOAM that will keep the water out.
I believe what you are doing is the correct solution. If you have integrity in the laminate in the keel area, great! I might just paint in waterproofing with some super garage floor polyurethane rubber type stuff. The kind that advertise themselves as water blockers. Not over foam.
Adding a layer of 6oz fiberglass to the outside crazed gelcoat is good too. The cloth is added to create thickness for your barrier. Put on in the hollow of the bilge it is easy to make the reinforcement disappear with fillers and fairing.
My gut feeling that if you want strength too, it's better - but MUCH more awkward - to add it inside.
I don't see how a fix can be freehanded with fouled foam in place.
338's heel fitting was attached to crumpled glass and crystallized plastic. Only two pins/bolts were thru something 'solid' - and that solid was pure no glass polyester resin - from the factory! It's a bad place down there to get good lamination - with correct fabric to resin ratio.
Anybody's Ariel/Commander has to keep this in mind when upgrading. But that's another thread.
I've finished taking out the foam I can get to. What is left is on the sides and under the lead ballast and there is still water in that little bit of foam also. So my plan is to finish my sanding on the outside so the glass can let out moisture that way and burn a 40 watt light bulb inside to get everything dry.
After I get it all dry and build up the bottom of the keel some to further bury the heel fitting bolts I want to add a bulkhead with a cutout in the bottom so water can get back and forth under it starting just in front of the heel fitting to strengthen the keel in that area. When you added these bulkheads were they plywood that you covered in cloth and epoxy or some other material?
Sounds good!
Those are crispy epoxy/Xmatt tacos. 5 or six layers of Xmatt. Under 1/4"
They are that dark because I was using some very old dark amber hardner.
Easy to make on Mylar sheet*.
Build up the panel with same size Xmatt material wetting out each layer as you stack.
You can jigsaw the 'bulkheads' to fit out of this custom sheet.
Then fill the corners with generous curved fillets, then tab with Xmatt strips to keep it all amalgamated - and also to spread the point load out on the contact surface - because we're not supposed to put hard panels in at 90 degrees to the hull.
Been avoiding the end of the keel issue. If we are getting water in there, and there is no IF, there's water entering there - then the argument might be to let the water out. And let it out easy - on A338 that end of the encapsulated ballast was OPEN.
SO, leave it open!
A338 had no added foam, so the bilge was free to collect water. There was no attempt by Everett to close off the end of the ballast in A338. In reality A338's ballast keel should have been free of water since it runs out to the keel bilge. This was not the case. (Another thread.)
I decided to fill the ballast keel void by injecting epoxy thru holes drilled from outside. I was lucky to remember to close off the open end before I'd gone too far in the epoxy filling. Later the nice straight blkhd was added once the height was established. And that became the end of the cabin sole.
You can buy fiberglass sheet in various thicknesses from McMasterCarr. It's polyester and seems after sanding to glue like a champ. I'm using 1/8". Could make the argument that something this thin would work for these small blkhds if they are filleted and tabbed and - as they do - are incorporated into a horizontal panel.
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*After stacking the 5 or 6 or 7 wet Xmatt pieces, top with mylar film and a very flat panel of some sort. You'll be making a beautiful flat consistent sheet - try to pull the air bubbles out once the second sheet is on top using the green spreader thingy - on TOP of the mylar.
The sheet peels right off once the epoxy is set.
If you build up some weight /pressure on that MDO(?) panel, you'll squeeze more of that expensive epoxy out BUT you'll make an even stronger more dense sheet.
Left overs can be used as backing 'blocks'.
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Somebody, maybe the factory, since they seem to have done (and didn't do) so many different things back there in the keel on Commanders and Ariels... somebody filled the very back narrow deep end and the bottom in A338 making a sort of ramp, actually a ramp, so that water collecting in the bilge ends up forward at the back of the ballast keel. In the Ariel it's just about perfect as the sump is under the bridge but accessible. If an inboard was there the bilge water would still be accessible, sort of, and in the lowest part of the vessel. Way to go.
This shows you can create a collecting point whereever you want. The filler seemed rock hard to me so I assumed the mass was made of mat and roving left-overs and resin. It also had the effect of adding some beef to the bottom of the keel and the rudder shoe area.
I'm in the same position as you are.
It's just that I've been at it longer, longer, longer.
In the beginning and through the decades I've bought many books on every boat subject. I like books.
Very few concerning the actual work with products have been useful.
Which is natural enough since the reader has to supply his own experience.
There are standouts. But generally books are general.
Have my own brand of timidity to deal with - when it comes to new processes. I work alone on A338. It's my Zen.
Imagine I'm being helpful when I drag on about things Ariel. Trying to be specific.
Wished many times that somebody had clewed me in to the processes that I hope I'm sharing. Experience is public, we are compelled to trade info.
Hope everybody SHARES their experiences and observations and revelations - whatever they are,
Have been told by Admiral Bill that Ebb can be difficult to understand.
It's shop talk converted into language. It would be much better and simpler to see processes.
BUT, thinking that youTube videos are the answer, many instructional ones I seen seem to be as useless as printed talk. Whatever the knack is to put forward a TIP, I'll keep trying until the ax falls.
Never an expert. Just reformulating experiences.
AND always In My Considered Opinion. B.S. It's just the backboard, you have the ball.
Discussion is the life blood of a Forum. It's back and forth repartee. We have a great community and great boats to talk about. BEST SHOW AND TELL ON THE NET.
Actually we are all in the same Boat.
[criminny he does go on and on....]
The Florida heat and humidity were not as oppressive yesterday so I got some things done.
The first picture is a template I had made previously for the fiberglass bulkhead I wanted to stiffen up the keel with. The bulkhead was 2-1/2" wide at the bottom and 6" wide at the top. It was 18" tall. The bulkhead was made from 6 layers of 1708 biax and after it kicked I used my pattern to mark the size and cut it out on the bandsaw.
The second picture is the bulkhead installed with just the fillets.
The third picture is after I tabbed it in. The dark line down the center is a refferance line I drew on the bulkhed with a dry marker to help me line up the biax tabbing when I was putting it in. I left about 1 inch under the bulkhead so water can travel back and forth under it.
The forth picture is what the aft end of the ballast looked like after I had cut the fiberglass out that enclosed the foam the factory installed. You can see at the point where I stopped cutting out old glass that there is about 1-1/2" of foam between the glass and the lead ballast. I had to transision down from there to the top of the lead so I made a pattern of the area and marked and cut out the biax to the shape I needed. then I wet out a portion of the biax in the area where it needed to make that transision and let it cure on the bench. Then when I installed the glass in the boat this created a ramp down from the higher level to the top of the lead.
You can see the glass installed in the fifth picture. Following Ebb's advice I left the very end of the lead ballast open so any water getting into the keel forward of that point would have an escape route to the bilge.
I am wondering what function these bulkheads serve? Does the hull need reinforcement along the bilge?? I am in a good position to install similar on Arthur...just need to know why!
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