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Thread: Commander 147

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Commander 147

    Well I finally did it. I flew to Vermont on Friday and on Saturday I bought commander # 147.

    She will be trucked to Florida in the next couple of weeks and then put on a trailer that we are building for her and brought to my home where I can do the stuff that is necessary to put her back into commission. While the "need to" list is relatively short, the "want to" list is very long and I will spend my summers (off season here in Florida thanks to summer thunderstorms) rebuilding this boat stem to stern. I can't wait to get started.
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Northern Calif
    Posts
    100
    Congrats! Even at its worst (scrape-sand-fill-scrape-sand-fill-sc......)it is wonderful fun!
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
    Posts
    605
    WAAAA-HOOOOO!!!! CONGRATS!!

    Pictures, pictures, pictures!

    ...and you'll have to change your screen name

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Scarborough, Maine
    Posts
    1,439
    Ditto!!!

    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
    Posts
    1,100
    Willbe?! Is! Congratulations to you. But I can't see a thing that needs to be done from that photo-other than relocating.

    You can start with photos of the trailer. Just keep them coming, I'm sure we'll let you know when to stop. Realize, however, no one has reached that point yet.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Francisco - or Abroad
    Posts
    430
    It looks Beautiful! Let us know the details of your to-do list... (I'm curious!)

    She might be the closest sibling to C-155... (??)

    What is her name?

    Interesting aft winch bases... Would you mind shooting a picture for me?

    Congratulations and welcome to the board!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Thanks all...

    Lucky Dawg

    As you can see Bill is right on top of things here, my screen name is now more appropriate.

    Rico

    I am more than happy to shoot any pictures you or anyone else would like. The boat is still in Vermont and per a conversation with the yacht transport company today they will likely pick up the boat either tomorrow afternoon or Thursday morning and head to Florida with her. I will probably see her next on Monday or Tuesday.

    The company building the trailer is in Georgia and I'm hoping to be able to pick up the trailer this weekend so I can put the boat straight on the trailer and bring her back to my house so I can get started working on her.

    Her name currently is Daydream. That may change down the road but for now I need to get to know her better before I change it.

    The aft winch bases I'm told have been on the boat for 20 years or more. The previous owner had the boat for 17 years and they were installed by the owner prior to him. They are nice when you are single handing the boat because they are closer to get to. Here is a shot I got from the prior owner showing them a bit closer up.

    BTW Rico do you still have that pivoting mast base you offered for sale? I may be interested in buying it.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283
    Like others:
    A hearty Congratulations is in order. I remember seeing her when she was listed for sale. I had emailed the previous owner who answered all my questions. I never did persue her for a couple of reasons but....from the answers I got, as well as the photos provided, it appeared she (your Commander, currently know as "Day Dream") was in excellent shape and ready to be enjoyed.
    If it were me, I'd think about enjoying her for the summer, then start attacking your "want to" and "desire" list. You may find that the priorities change as you and her develop a bond and you get to know her more.

    Enjoy and keep the photos coming. It help us, especially me, out and keeps many motiviated.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Thanks Chance...

    I intend to sail her as soon as possible. And she is not my first boat and I truely understand the bond between a boat and her owner. There are however some things I must to because the boat is not splash ready the way she is now.

    First the previous owner was bringing the boat to a marina he normally did not go to, to have the boat hauled last fall. He hit a rock with the keel and caused some damage that I need to repair. I have included a picture of the damage below. And while I'm repairing that I'm also going to address the minor blistering that I believe was caused by a barrier coat that was applied that sealed water in the keel instead of sealing it out. Then I will strip the bottom and redo the barrier coat and apply bottom paint that is appropriate for my area.

    When I complete that I need to stop the wet core in the deck from getting any wetter and try to recover from what has already occured. The chain plates have been leaking for some time and there is already some spongy deck in a small area on the port side. There is also a wet core near the bow in the area I circled in the second picture in red. That area also has a small spongy area. That area sustained damage in a storm and that is why you see the small disks under the pulpit bases. It was a cover up repair.

    And last but not least the lake I plan to put the boat in initially does not have a lift so I need a mast raising system that does not require a crane. I know what I want to do but I need to get it done. As part of that setup I want to replace the wood that is currently under the mast with the aluminum base.
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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283

    I completely understand

    Hello,
    I can truely understand your motivation and determination to fix the criticals and get it "right". Thanks for the photos, nicely done. I have no Idea how you drew lines, arrows and circles one the one photo, but sense your very computer savvy too.

    That PO's redevous with a submerged rock must have been a real nightmare. I would definately call that "hard" aground, although perhaps not stuck.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    grand rapids mi
    Posts
    91
    Good to know about that rudder strap! How about the shoe area though, is it the same? Or is the bottom thick enough that they're inside the glass? (I read someone's post on the shoe, but can't remember more than basic details.)

    Would seem to answer why the foam is waterlogged in so many of these boats.

    My boat isn't in the water yet, so I think I'll check that out, and take your advice on overbore/filling the holes.

    Ken.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,617
    Hey Kendall, you're scaring me!
    No over-bore down there!
    It's just fiberglass, what there is of it, NO CORE.

    My fix:
    Scrape the cavity with carbide scrapers (Bacho) Remove any loose stuff.
    Make paper patterns (Really!) of the port side and the starboard side (obviously they are flipflops)
    Allow ONLY one 90 degree turn into the ends and on the bottom. NO U TURNS, they get out of control.
    Cut XMATT so that each panel you put in laps only over the other side's panel in the end and the bottom of the keel.


    Xmatt is stiff enough initially so that after you have cut it to the paper pattern size you can FIT it into the cavity AND take it out again. You will want to remove darts of material where it wants to bunch. I would put in at least 2 layers of 24oz. What you are doing is also a dry run. Epoxy has a short open time after mix. In the cup it is way shorter than when spread thin. Epoxy when it's cool.

    Lay out some plastic film, lay the cut-to-fit Xmatt on it and wet it out with 2part epoxy. Drape it into place in the keel which has also been wet out (IMPORTANT, make sure you are putting wet material on a wet surface. Only way you can get a mate, with no holidays.) Unlike woven fiberglass, you CAN reposition Xmatt, just not too many times befor it starts falling apart.

    Use a throw-away brush to poke the Xmatt into the corners. I go so far as to sharpie pen hash marks where the turns are to be on the fabric. It makes positioning easier when it is wet. If you feel you can put the second layer on top of the first wet layer, go for it. Otherwise let it stiffen up some, or come back the next day. Next day will no doubt require some prep. I like to alternate one side's lap over the other for the strength it makes. Use the brush to poke the fabric into the epoxy. If you have created a bridge with the fabric over a depression, slice the wet fabric with a utility knife and pat it down. Patch it later if needed, or paste on a piece of scrap.

    If the surface is too weird and you know you won't be able to get a solid no holiday layer, you can mix up some epoxy and fumed silica gel to smear over the problem 'cavity' just before the fabric Quickly. Just pat it flat with your latex gloved hand.

    After your reinforcing layer(s) are in, then you want to add a bunch of mishmash (2part laminating epoxy - f. silica - 1/4"/1/2" chopped strand fiberglass.) Mix it stiff so you can sculpt it over the area where the gudgeon fastenings go - so the the fastenings are not exposed in the keel cavity. Tab in a piece of Xmatt or fabric over the glob so that it ends up relatively smooth.

    Xmatt leaves a rough surface. After it is set you may want to smooth it with the gel mix. A good smoother is the pliable green applicator that seems to be everywhere.....you can spread the mix on really smooth so that there is little work to do after it is set.


    After this work is done then you can add a 'garboard' drain plug. Make sure it is bronze.
    You now have a nice sump to collect water and to have a bilge pump or two.
    I'm in the full access camp for boat maintenance. Foam makes access impossible and creates more problems than it cures. Fit a lid over the area so socks won't get in.

    All imco, hope some of this is helpful, sorry if it seems patronizing.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________
    It's impossible to know what has been in and out of the bilge in 45 years. To know what oils and waxes and stuff have been there - ARE STILL THERE.
    NO, can't use solvents - out of the question. Scrape, abrade, grind - these are impossible but not lethal. The Fein tool will allow abrading and scraping near to the bottom of the keel. Any solvent will screw up the epoxy or any coating going in there next.
    Must use 100% solids NO SOLVENT epoxy - unless you want to die. Do not use West System epoxys here. Some of their epoxies blush and some use formaldehyde in the hardener side (205). Set up ventilation under the cockpit when working there.
    Last edited by ebb; 06-21-2009 at 11:40 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Kendall & Ebb

    First Kendall

    No the shoe does not appear to have the same issue. At least not on my boat. I looks like they added some extra roving saturated with resin in the area of the shoe. Just the same I am going to build it up more in that area just to make sure I have no future problems.

    Ebb

    What would be a good way to fix the water intrusion in that area so you don't have to rely on strictly sealant in an underwater location like that? There must be some way other than digging out all the foam like I am.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,617
    I guess there has to be an each individual boat fix, a good enough fix.

    Then there's ebb's way.

    Water gets in obviously thru the laminate.
    Thru stupid everetts like we've just seen with the gudgeon fastenings entering and going thru the interior OPEN SPACE of the keel.
    AND 'intrusion' like all other water that gets in from above.

    Water is going to go to the lowest point, no matter what.
    Water is the UNIVERSAL SOLVENT. Boaters know that.
    There's no film, caulk, sealant, adhesive or FOAM that will keep the water out.

    I believe what you are doing is the correct solution. If you have integrity in the laminate in the keel area, great! I might just paint in waterproofing with some super garage floor polyurethane rubber type stuff. The kind that advertise themselves as water blockers. Not over foam.

    Adding a layer of 6oz fiberglass to the outside crazed gelcoat is good too. The cloth is added to create thickness for your barrier. Put on in the hollow of the bilge it is easy to make the reinforcement disappear with fillers and fairing.

    My gut feeling that if you want strength too, it's better - but MUCH more awkward - to add it inside.

    I don't see how a fix can be freehanded with fouled foam in place.


    338's heel fitting was attached to crumpled glass and crystallized plastic. Only two pins/bolts were thru something 'solid' - and that solid was pure no glass polyester resin - from the factory! It's a bad place down there to get good lamination - with correct fabric to resin ratio.
    Anybody's Ariel/Commander has to keep this in mind when upgrading. But that's another thread.
    Last edited by ebb; 06-21-2009 at 11:09 AM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720

    Ebb another question...

    I've finished taking out the foam I can get to. What is left is on the sides and under the lead ballast and there is still water in that little bit of foam also. So my plan is to finish my sanding on the outside so the glass can let out moisture that way and burn a 40 watt light bulb inside to get everything dry.

    After I get it all dry and build up the bottom of the keel some to further bury the heel fitting bolts I want to add a bulkhead with a cutout in the bottom so water can get back and forth under it starting just in front of the heel fitting to strengthen the keel in that area. When you added these bulkheads were they plywood that you covered in cloth and epoxy or some other material?
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