Insulating the hull questions.

[Hull376]

ebb,

Have glued in all the topside panels and the yogurt glue is holding well. And no smell! I've temporarily used some vinyl tape on the few seams until I decide on a permanent way to detail. For the v berth, I think I'm going to take the easy way out and simply insulate the horizontal flat surfaces and then maybe use appropriate stretchy white painty like product on the exposed cut edges of the dense closed cell foam. installing the panels in a couple of pieces in each cabin was a cinch. I found that a paintbrush was the best tool to lay on the 564 glue- better than a toothed trowel. The trowel, although a small one, couldn't conform to the dips and bumps in the fiberglass. It was leaving voids and pools!

So far so good!

[Hull376]

Ebb,

I stumbled on this product at Home Depot. http://www.parklandplastics.com/polywall.shtml Is chemically probably like that PVC stuff that takes several thousand years to decompose. But at least it's made from recycled resins so not adding to earth's landfills- at least for now! But I bought a sheet ($17 I think) and glued some to the Armacel foam with that wonder adhesive 564. It's the recommended glue type and it stuck really well. It cuts easily with a utility knife- just score it and then snap off the piece. You might have to slide the knife across a few spots to detach it. It's durable, stain proof, but can be easily bent onto curved surfaces such as the inside of the top sides. Cant do compound curves, though. I used it in a couple of places where I think it would wear better than the vinyl cloth. I also used some to replace pieces of the original laminate that I had painted some years ago and which were chipping and yellowing. I refaced the companionway (spelling?--hummmm) steps with it. Don't use this in place of Formica. Too soft. Because this is a flexible but semi-rigid sheet, very "bendy", it was much easier to size and laminate to the foam compared to cloth backed vinyl.

I tested its claimed imperviousness to staining by letting ketchup, mustard, blueberry, coffee, and red wine dry on a piece of this stuff. It washed off with water. I thought surely the wine would leave a stain, but no. My wife asked me why it mattered, was I planning on having a food fight on the boat?..

And it is treated on one side to ensure bonding to glue (and Armacel or Ensolite or whatever) .And 564 is still a big winner in the glue category far as I'm concerned!

[ebb]

Kent, Has some great qualities, doesn't it?.
One is that it's everything proof, and easy to clean. MSDS says it's made of extruded recycled polyolefins and mineral fillers. So not knowing anything about the manufacture, it may be ground-up polyetylene and p.propylene from the landfill - with who knows what mineral fillers (cabosil?) - that's heated, melted and extruded flat to make continuous 4' wide 8ft/10ft panels.
1/16" stuff has a how-to video that shows a bendy but stiff material like veneer being glued to drywall.
Comes in various unknown thicknesses up to 3/16".

Long open time waterborne (latex) trowel cement is recommended. Interesting they advise troweling it on one surface only. Tech guide says wall, video shows panel.

For a nice waterproof surface this is the stuff. Too bad it is so stiff. The thin material can be rolled (good for shipping) but cannot do compound curves. Ebb's vinyl material is way more floppy, but actually will also NOT do compound/concave surfaces. It will cheat a little if you are covering small areas. It also soils, maybe because I insisted on installing the material matt side out. It's also vinyl and will never be as inert as Plas-tex.

Polyolefins are thermo-plastics. Wonder if the stuff can be heated (hot water, electric blanket, heat gun*) and encouraged to take a compound curve.... like to cover insulation already installed against the hull.
Or to bend around corners, if you have any carpentered radius corners in the cabin?
It just may be too stiff to cover a foam rubber insulation.

[Somebody will come along who wants to glue cedar strips to his ensolite insulated hull - to get that varnished traditional look....
And probably be successful!!!]

APAC564 and other waterborne green adhesives are recommend for plywood, concrete, terrazzo, concrete patching compounds, gypsum. These are essentially porus surfaces that may allow minimal evaporation the paste needs to transform into rubber cement. APAC564 should not be used when RH is above 80% - should be applied when the RH at the site is falling - warming & getting drier.
Vinyl, tile, linoleum, Plas-tec are not porus. This adhesive needs to evaporate water to set. It won't bond wet. If both surfaces to be bonded are non-porus the only way to glue is to trowel it on and let it get tacky, partially evaporate. Then carefully position the panel/piece onto the substrate and roll or press evenly over the entire surface.


Kurt,
who proposed using pink and blue Home Depo foam panels as secondary bulkheads in his boat remodeling, might use Plas-tex to make a great surface on the foam. Plas-tex says it is impervious to water (along with a list of two dozen other usual suspects).

Would probably use Chem-tec M-1 polyether in the boat to seal corners and transitions to other materials.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
* Perhaps panels of certain dimension could be steamed? A large flat pan of propane fired boiling water in a box - wire rack above the pan - maybe the Plas-tex gets floppy (but still holds dimension) at a certain temp. When 'done', lift lid, remove from the steamer quickly place in position against the insulation on the hull, press a pillow against the hot panel and brace it with a stick. Panel is thin, won't hold heat, cools immediately, hopefully with a slight belly against the rubber.
If this formed Plas-tec crust is completely bonded to the softer but relatively firm insulation, it just might work.

[Hull376]

ebb,

Good observations. If you had a piece of this stuff in your hands you'd see that it can easily be glued to the curved shape of the topsides in the main cabin. You'd have to let the 564 set until tacky, but this material won't have the energy to "spring" free of the foam (or just the raw fiberglass if you just wanted to dress up the inside without insulating.) But if the 564 is too wet, you'd have problems. If you send me a private message with your address, I'll send you a piece glued to Armacel and you'll get a better feel for it.

[ebb]

Kent, Thanks. That's a great offer!
But let me check out the Home Depos here first, maybe they have the stuff.
Maybe not a whole 4X8 sheet!
(It looks like Plas-tex could be glued on both sides of plywood before cutting pieces out for projects - cancelling a number of finishing steps.)

Still have 4 large spaces left to do on the Q-berth hull-sides... to insulate and cover. (Large pieces with a lot of compound curve, since the berth is under the starboard seat locker in the cockpit, where the hull gets pretty tricky.

Was sort of kidding about softening the panels, don't know if I have time left to start experimenting.
Brochure illustrations of Plas-tex show a sort of ply composite construct that might not allow softening. Steaming is just an idea to make sustained/controled heat in a wide box. Gas or electric would do just as well, if you happen to have a big convection oven at the boat! What temp to bend, not deform? Probably somewhere in the 350degree range, depends entirely on the actual plastic composition.
I'd start experimenting with a flat pan and boiling water, just to see if a tight fit piece of Plas-tex sheet would hold a mild compound curve. Armatex says their ensolite is good up to 220degrees "intermitant". Hot Plas-Tex might be formed in place, pressed on top of previously installed foam. BS only if it doesn't work!

Flat dimensional sheet won't conform to compound curves, even at less than 1/16" thickness.
The floppy vinyl sheet I've used to cover foam won't be pushed into any but the slightest hull concaves.
Instead, I was going to try some nice beige 5/16" cut-nap polyethylene (underscore) vehicle liner.* It's like a coarse polar fleece that has a filled water-resist under side that allows trowel gluing. Velcro hook&loop preferable for removal.. Many fleece fabrics can be cleaned by hosing, dries quickly.
This stuff, instead of having thin stiff vinyl or hard rubber backing like carpet material, has thickened integrated gluable backing of the same material that is soft & pliable - that hopefully conforms well to concavities - as I suppose it's meant to on auto doors, trunks & foot wells.
This liner on top of ensolite foam would make for a cozy berth.
Possible it could become home to damp mold and bugs, where impervious Plas-tex would be the correct easy to keep clean finish in that hard to ventilate corner of the boat. If it can be formed.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
*There are some SailRite youTubes to look up. One is: Installing Carpet Style/Hull Liner in Boat. There it shows a very casual installation of some hull 'blanket' on the overheard in a large boat V-berth. The blanket is an automotive type, a kind of slightly stretchy non-sided hairy felt. Relatively easy to put up using 3M spray adhesive and a remover for the installer's unavoidable over spray. Demo fabric is designed to be glued in.
Another video shows thin plywood furring strips on an overhead used to velcro thin panels (your choice) precovered in fabric (your choice) - with HomeDepo construction hard foam board filler between strips for added insulation. Both these are presented as DIY instructions.
Funky methods with informative & apologetic camera voice commentary. Ideas to adapt (or do better!), with Sailrite, no doubt, as the materials source.

[Hull376]

ebb,

Some photos for you. These are some "tests" I made using Armacell foam, Plas-tex, and vinyl 90 degree corner protector material (Home Depot, $1.88 / 8ft). I let the 564 carpet paste get tacky, applied to both sides of pieces being glued. I spray painted the inside of the corner protector material white (comes clear) so that it would cover the edge cut, and wouldn't scratch off after installation. Just for fun, I also glued the Plas-tex to a piece of rigid blue insulation foam to see how it bonded, and what kind of strength the resulting laminate would have.

First photo shows Plas-tex glued to Armacell foam on left, then a piece of "blue" rigid foam on right. Second photo shows the painted corner vinyl. One piece has been cut along one face to allow it to be bent along a curve. For example, if you left a rough edge along the the curve in the under-deck portion of the bow area after insulating the flat underside. The final two photos are of the Armacell, and then the blue foam. I think I'd really consider this Plas-tex stuff as a great finishing surface to a rebuild of an ice-box. Makes the foam really strong after its laminated, but really easy to work with.

Still to come, some photos of the Armacell / Plas-Tex combo installed on the boat. Everything stuck together quite nicely with wondrous 564 carpet paste. I'll never use contact spray or cement again!

[ebb]

PlasTex, of course, would be the hard one to bond, but if the composite is not going to get stressed then just sealing might be good enough.

At the boatshow found a guy selling cockpit cushions - www.ccushions.com - that are 1 5/8" thick ensolite coated with what looked like dipped! (or sprayed) vinyl. Ensolite has been around since Noah's Ark, everybody loves it. It works for everybody. Wonder if sun hot vinyl dipped cushions will stick to tender thighs when standing up - and have to be very carefully peeled off?
Bought one small cushion because the coating is odorless, seamless, flawless and intriguing. He said the foam is Armacell. If the coating is really bonded to the rubber then a hole in the cushion isn't important. He offered a painton repair kit. ( 12"X16" cushion was $25 - to judge cost.)
So here we have the foam finished soft. It would have made an excellent coating on the rubber lining inside litlgull.

White (for sitting on) vinyled closed cell foam - somehow velcroed to cockpit seats for instant removal - would add extra safety.
If you could get the cushion to someone in the water, there's probably more flotation and easier grabbing/hugging than a life ring.
Of course you can frisbee a life ring, and a cushion might just get blown away.


Gluing in foam slabs avoided any exposed corners on the A338 hull..... because only one layer of 1/2-5/8" foam fit
INTO the space between the settee tops and the hull stringers. And between the top of the stringers and the
underside of the deck. No ends, no edges. Don't know where you'd want an exposed edge? Unless you're dealing with foam board.

Do we know what Kurt did with his proposed foam bulkheads? Where he may very well have wanted something more dense or semi-rigid to finish off the edges. And if harder vinyl corners you show in your photos are bonded to rigid foam, maybe they'll provide enough tooth for screws to hold wood trim, along with a little of that mavelous 564. Wood could probably be just pasted on - adding a lot of protection and structure.


Looking forward to seeing what's happening inside your boat!


Used PlasticDip to make removable protective covers for padlocks installed key side up outside. No deterioration after three or four years now.
Just to say vinyl is a great coating if you find the right stuff for your app. Soft or hard it may be the appropriate stuff.
PlasticDip, as an amazing wet dipping material that could have a place on the boat. Used mostly for coating tool handles, tenaciously bonds to metal.
The dipping is thick and can be redipped to make it even thicker. The cushion coating seems very thin, but it's similar stuff imco.
Wonder if some form of this liquid pure vinyl comes in a can for roll on?

Here's to grins, laffs, and merriment!

[Hull376]

ebb,

Attached are some pics of the Plas-Tex installed over the Armacel and affixed to to the topsides inside my boat. I hadn't yet put the trim pieces on the exposed edges so you can see the insulation on the underside of the deck in the v berth. The panels fit OK between the stringers (just OK since the builders from Portugal didn't care much about straight lines along the stringers on my boat!!!) This setup really helped this summer, and, now that mold season is here, no sign of the black plant critters on the Plas tex stuff. I also included a shot of where I put a piece of the stuff on the board that goes from the berth to the sole. I always had trouble keeping paint clean and it got nicked up pretty easily there. Not so with this new material I'm trying out. Maybe get rid of paint brushes and paint cans if this works out.

[Hull376]

Berth to Sole Pic. Also front under the deck before trim installed. This is the air conditioner's happy storage spot. See air conditioning threads for how it is placed over the front hatch when in use.

[ebb]

Armacel makes flexible synthetic 'rubber' insulation foams. A number of them.

I just very quicklly went through their catalog - trying to find out what the problem could be.
Really don't know squat.....

(this post is NOT a defense of the company.....)

Armacell (the company) makes elastomeric and polymeric foams out of nitrile, pvc, epdm and polyethylene.
And a tweeky mix of any one, two, three or four of them. Have a small idea what those are, but
for the layman all the formulas are chemically blurred. After all, synthetic rubber foams are all petro-chemical plastic.


Wonder if paulsproesser's stuff is this:
(good that he points this out! Lining the hull with sponge would be.......futile.)

ARMAFLEX/AF and Tuffcoat seem to be foamed nitrile synthetic rubber products used for HYAC systems.
They say it is watervapor resistant, they talk about micro-cell structure.....
but do NOT say, as they do for nearly all of their other foams, that the foam is CLOSED CELL.
Why the distinction, why it isn't closed cell needs to be answered.
Maybe it's a matter of wicking condensation away from enclosed metal parts? No idea.


They still are using the old name 'Ensolite' to describe their closed cell 'pvc' foams.
But Armacell Ensolite EFO is "super soft EPDM crushed (semi-closed cell) foam"
"The Ensolite product line offers also a complete range of polymers in standard compression deflection ranges
( CR, EPDM, SBR, NBR, PVC/NBR) and other blends." That's a quote from their literature.
Some 50 or 60 types of "Ensolite" are listed!
Challenge ANYbody to nail this down! I've always assumed that Ensolite is a pvc foam.....
Other manufacturers and vendors all agree that Ensolite is CLOSED CELL. Something you'd trust for flotation.

Armacell makes outdoor solar/photovoltaic system insulation tubes - but do NOT say 'closed cell' in describing it.
They also make polyethylene foam (Tobolit) packaging sheets - which is closed cell.
Their sound/noise barrier foams are not closed cell.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............
This says to me that I can assume that Ensolite that I used to assume is a closed cell PVC foam,
can now be a crushed EPDM (semi-closed cell) foam - that in no way could be used to save a life.
Really, so who's to say that Armaflex closed cell nitrile foam, cannot have a similar undependable off the wall 'semi-closed-cell' crushed foam?
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*Have yet to find a single enrty on google for "semi-closed-cell foam" (AKA, water-rersistant-foam)

[Hull376]

Armaflex is closed cell

Hope this from Armacell's technical discussion helps, guys. Much more info on their web site. What I used was closed cell. They are actively marketing this for steel hull vessel insulation because of its closed cell very low absorption properties (u hygroscopic moisture resistance values exceed 7,000u, which means it is extremely low hygroscopic and can't absorb much water vapor or water unless its constantly submerged.) You can see lots of projects on the web, including some pretty well recognized boat builders (for example, Steve Dashew's Windhorse and his experimental FPB 64). Steve is going to be pretty upset if his luxury liner gets rusted out because of Armaflex.

I won't doubt the real world instances of material failures from 30 years HVAC experience. But I do wonder if maybe some of the saturated foam was another product or a bad batch! Otherwise we'd have a situation where a non-hygroscopic material is absorbing water like a sponge which means something would have to change the material to reduce the "u" value from over 7,000 to something very low. Time might do it but tests show little change after 20 years. Temperatures outside the working range? I don't know. On their web site they say that it can absorb water if left submerged for long periods. Maybe water collecting and pooling in ductwork? That would probably do it for sure. Other Armacell products are open cell and shouldn't be used for thermal insulation. At the Armacell warehouse here in Houston I was given a tour by one of their application techs. He discussed the extremely low hygroscopic properties of the foam I was looking at. I saw lots of product that looks about the same------ black foam! But it was all different stuff. And I didn't see markings on the products as to what each was. Only the boxes and the shelves say what is what, so the forklift guys knew what they were pulling off the racks.... I'm looking for web postings on Armaflex absorbing H2O over time but haven't located any yet. Let me know if you find some. Posts discussing fiberglass absorbing water are easy to find! It's the "completely submerged for a long time" issue!

This from Armacel's web site:


Armaflex - Protects Your Investment
The professional insulation with the "inbuilt water-vapour-barrier"
» more information



With its exceptional, inbuilt, water vapour barrier Armaflex is particularly effective at preventing moisture ingress and ensuring long term thermal efficiency. The thermal properties of Armaflex will not rapidly deteriorate over time as other insulation materials may and, by keeping moisture as far from the pipe surface as possible, Armaflex reduces the risk of expensive under insulation corrosion.

The in built water vapour barrier of Armaflex comes from its closed cell structure. Armafl ex comprises thousands of interconnected closed cells, each with an inherent resistance to water ingress. As such the vapour barrier of Armaflex cannot be compromised by surface punctures or tears.

Is Armaflex water proof?

Armaflex offers a strong resistance against water vapour and will not absorb moisture easily. The material will however absorb moisture if left submerged in water for prolonged periods of time.

Painted Armaflex is perfectly fine to be left in the rain and Armaflex Tuffcoat or Armaflex clad in Arma-Chek R or Arma-Chek T may be safely located in washdown environments. For pipework continuously submerged under water for long periods none of these would be recommended.

[paulsproesser]

I can tell from the photos this is the same stuff we use to cover refrigeration lines with . It comes in 3/8 to 6" x 5' pieces and it's also what we use in sheet form to wrap the exterior of centrifugal and reciprocating chiller evaporator barrels and comes in large sheets from 1/2 to 1" thickness. It really isn't intended to be glued on to ahe surface, but just a light adhesive to hold it in place so the end joints can be glued together with VASCOCEL ADHESIVE which helps seal the open ends and is really what seals it. It will eventually tear away from any glue backing if moisture is present thus tearing off the surface where the glue is. Its a breeding ground for mold and mildew and will also hold heat in the cabin. However it is a sound barrier and temp barrier and has a 25/50 smoke fire rating but when it burns it smokes bad , don't be around and don't breath it , It will overcome you instantly meaning you won't get a chance for a second full breath. I know Ive caught it on fire with the torch several times. When you push your finger into a sheet covering a sweating chiller barrel in summer you will get some water / sponge effect and usually when it peels off the barrell is completely rusted underneath paint and all is peeled off. The stuff is soft and comfortable though and if you start having these issues just tear it out and use it in your toolboxes. I saw another issue with your a/c . You should build a plenum box off the back hot air condenser discharge same size as coil and at least 16" deep. You can make it from metal or thin veneer and foil tape it . Then come off the box with some flex duct and a small high rpm inline 120v fan and duct it out your cowl vent. that hot discharge buildup in the chainlocker will burn up the compressor and its getting forced into the cabin your trying to cool. But don't close off the opening around the unit/ chainlocker because the condenser intake is on the sides in the rear. The cooler cabin air will make it happy

[paulsproesser]

Im not trying to be overly negative on this because this is a great comfort, sound and temp insulator and it is more attractive than bare bumpy wall and I know alot of work went into it. So keep us informed on how it holds up and keep an eye on what's going on underneath and if there isnt a serious mold issue or water you're ok.

[ebb]

Seems that all named Armaflex ntrile foams are closed cell. (HT, NH, UT, AR, etc.)
Buna-N, NBR, Nitrile is a copolymer of butadiene and acrylontrile (ACN). These are tweaked for elasticity and crosslinking during sulphur vulanization....as well as for tensile strength, hardness, abrasion resistance and vapor impermeability. "The ACN content of Nitrile rubber material can range from 16% to 45% with a general purpose compound usually containing around 34%...." www.timcorubber.com/rubber-materials/nitrile.htm

Which is simply to pointout that even AP-Armaflex formulations will produce different foams. Small cell, large cell and different foaming gases.... with Armacell - on the green side - using carbon-dioxide as the blowing agent. Nitrile's main attribute is it's broad range resistance to petrochems and solvents (except aromatics.*)

Maybe temperature and moisture cycling of foam in use tends to break down some formulas and not others. There are different types of nitrile yielding highly branched, or linear, or crosslinked (AR-Armaflex) polymers. Which is to say that maybe not all Armaflex products over the years are the same.
While nitrile foam is kown for its resistamce to many chemicals, it has a poor reputation for weather resistance. Ozone & UV. you can't leave it uncoated when used outdoors.
And there could have been bad batches, as you say - that Armacell doesn't admit to.
There could have been an Armacell foam used in your HVAC installaions that is not an AP-Armaflex.
Synthetic plastic rubber is not glass or stainless steel. Imco there always has to be the possibility of water or some vapor migrating thru plastic - given certain specific conditions.


google: Armacell - Shell Deer Park, Houston Texcas
Where two 82' diameter spheres (containing continuously cooled butadiene at near freezing) were covered in 3" of AP-Armaflex.
The whole point is to control the temp of the contents (3" of Armaflex has an R value of 8.4)
The spheres were first coated with a fire proofing epoxy that itself expands into foam at very high temps.
Would think that the glue for the Armaflex has to be something more than mere contact cement.
After the spheres were covered with AP-Armaflex, a blanket of UV rubber coating was sprayed over the foam.
This is a highly engineered installation, these petro guys aren't fooling around.
Has to be guaranteed to last at keast few years in Texas sun and weather...


Imco, the word INTERCONNECTED ususlly refers to OPEN CELL foam.
The gas bubbles in closed cell foam aren't connected.
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* If any of these solvents listed here were used to prep or clean parts of a HVAC install, they could have attacked nitrile AP-Armaflex:
turpentine, rubber solvent C9, benzene, and xylene, naptha, toluene. Xylene is a constituent of gasoline.

Solvent based CONTACT CEMENT is likely to be formulated with some aromatic solvents - chemicals that can brealdown nitrile rubber.
(So, for example, if the cement is encapsulated in closed cell nitrile foam pipe wrap.....and the solvent cannot escape
.....the solvent in that scenario might eat the rubber and open closed cells into a sponge.)

[Hull376]

Paul,

Thanks for your comments. But look at the text again above the air conditioner pic and you'll see that you are looking at is its storage spot on the boat, not where it's operated. It sits topside on the forward hatch to do that! It works like one of the Carryon units I used to own, but much smaller and half the weight, and an eighth the price. Plus, you can easily store it in unused space in the chain locker, only intrudes 10 inches or so. But you have to make an inlet and outlet air separator (like the Carryon units have) that fits on the front and goes down through the front hatch. Works like a charm and setup takes less than 5 minutes! Pics on the air conditioning posts if you are interested.