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Thread: Commander #256 (Ceili)

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
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    720
    Chance

    Sorry to hear you no longer have internet but happy to hear you are still making some progress on Ceili.

    I'm curious of your plan for building the new rudder since I too will be doing the same project. Do you plan to build it exactly the way it is detailed in the manual or some variation of that?
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  2. #122
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    Aug 2008
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    Camden, NC
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    Rudder profile

    Jerry,
    The new rudder will take on the profile of the alternative profile as depited on Alberg's line drawings of the Commander and as can be seen in the manual. This profile, I believe is referred to as "constellation" is very near identical to Albergs design of the Bristols, Cape Dorys and others.

    The rudder foil (blade) will be of BS1088 ply core, permanently affixed to the bronze rudder shaft and encased in glass. All metal, is silicon bronze, either herculoy or everdur, with the exception of the pins that will hold the strap and rudder shoe on, that will be copper.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  3. #123
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    Sep 2008
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    Brooksville, FL
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    Chance

    I have been impressed with much of the work you have done on Ceili. It appears that you do your homework before you do a project and so for that reason I am very curious to know what the deciding factors were for you when you decided to go with BS1088 plywood for the rudder. So far I have been leaning towards solid quarter sawn mahogany for mine but I believe in making the most imformed choices I can for my projects. So can you tell me what made you decide on the plywood?
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,621

    meranti thunder

    NOT to steal Chance's thrunder....
    This is the BEST PLYWOOD for a composite/encapsulated rudder.
    I have been a user of Meranti BS-1088 for awhile now.
    The stuff is the most IMPRESSIVE plywood available on the market.
    For the reasonable price there is no better marine plywood on the planet.
    The APA has no standard of plywood (like fir) that matches BS-1088 -
    that includes fir 'marine'. I have seen some quality plywoods that look visibly OK,
    but they invariably will have gaps, overlays and seams, glue skips and delaminations, and mixed quality junk cores with splits and knot holes. A B...S.... American standard.

    Meranti can be found at around the same price if not cheaper in comparable sizes.
    The most durable of these Philippine mahogany (red lauan Shorea) plywoods is sold as HYDROTEK.
    Look for printing on the edge of the panel and the name stamped on the A face in one corner.
    Why not use the best?
    The board comes in mm and inches. ASK the supplier. You can find our fractions of an inch, where 1/4" is exactly 1/4", on this foreign made plywood. American plywood is undersized but not millimetered.
    Okume (which may have the same BS-1088 standard) is not meranti nor durable as Hydrotek. I believe Aquatek is the name for non-BS-1088 marine meranti.

    British Standard BS-1088 requires that
    all veneers are the same species -
    no gaps or fillers - the core must have the same quality veneers as the face -
    (only one edge gap allowed per side)
    WBP phenol formaldehyde glue. Weather Boil Proof.*
    the board is absolutely square and has no variations in thickness.

    Personal experience:
    Imco the material is twice as strong as the same thickness of fir. All veneers are the same thickness. 7 veneer layers in 3/8", for example, could be one reason for its stability. Doesn't seem to respond to ambient temps and moisture. Got a lot of waterproof glue layers too.
    In the past where you intuit that 1/2" fir is required, maybe 1/4" or 3/8" meranti is better and lighter.
    It is exceptionally easy to encapsulate meranti with glass and epoxy.
    Have laminated a single layer of glass with epoxy on sheets and worked on the result for years.
    I've sanded this light treatment, not to break through, but to prep for primer and have had
    the coated plywood acts as if it came (BS-1088) that way from the lumberteria.
    The stuff is a PLEASURE to work with. It doesn't claw you with splinters. And it even smells good.

    Another really important aspect of this plywood is that a panel comes FLAT. (Good for rudders!)
    Pick up fir plywood panel and there is at least a twist in it that doesn't come from the vendor not sticking it correctly. Stand it on edge and there is at least one bow in its length and width. It's just the way it is. You can sight down the length of many a domestic sheet and see extra waggles and waves in the surface. More for your money.

    Scrolling meranti is also a treat. There can be tearout along the edge. But you can fix that by adjusting the jigsaw or the blade. Using a Bosch T118A 17-24 Metal cutting blade gets you almost a laser cut. Easy to clean up an edge by sanding.
    It mills beautifully with the router. Wide edge roundovers don't faze the veneers at all. Holds screws well. Have bought only one partial bad sheet (no glue!) in all these years.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________
    *WBP
    Weather Boil Proof test
    24 hour cold water immersion and
    72 hour boiling water immersion then
    the samples are cooled in cold water
    then given a sheer test for delamination. (Don't know how this is done.)
    But that IS IMPRESSIVE - and there is imco no american plywood product that can survive this GLUE test.
    [Guys, I'm sorry, do get carried away]
    Last edited by ebb; 03-29-2011 at 08:10 AM.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
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    720
    Ebb

    I'm still looking forward to Chance's reply but thank you for that info. This plywood is as you say very impressive material. I'm starting to understand why Chance decised to go with it. I believe it will be easier to make the rudder with a couple of layers of 1/2" Meranti BS1088 plywood than it would be with the solid mahogany and a lot less expansion and contraction to deal with. Looks like I'm starting to lean a differant direction. :-)
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,621

    traditional rudder

    Jerry, we've talked about the original A/C rudder here a number of times.
    Some guys have chosen to go with Honduran planks and silicon bronze rod and screws and remade them.
    There are some original mahogany, mechanically fastened NO EPOXY rudders still going strong.
    Now going on to 50years working on the end of the keel underwater.
    Talk about a water test!!!

    The original rudder is a work of art.
    They are a left over from the glory days of shipwrights and wooden yachts.
    If you can reproduce it, as built, it is just as strong as a snotty glass/plywood/foam version. And while you and I can make a good looking rudder from modern materials, only the original rudder will ever be considered........ BEAUTIFUL.
    Last edited by ebb; 03-28-2011 at 08:02 AM.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
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    283
    Good Day gents,
    Sorry for the delay and short response but, public access for me is limited:

    I concur with all the above and thanks Ebb, for your expertise and breakdown above. I do agree, the original, three plank genuine honduras mahogany rudder with bronze drift pins, bolts and lags are true beauty to behold. Additionally, the ear shaped rudder as Pearson built our lovely Ariels and Commanders is graceful, but...., I am choosing a slight departure in that both the profile and rudder layup will be different. Here's where I believe there is no one right way, and all others are wrong. Just so long as craftsmanship, design, prudency, fuction and quality materials prevail, I think a great rudder can either be restored, re-made / re-built, or completely remade from scratch.
    Meranti BS1088 is a perfect core for rudder application, so long as on desires a composite rudder. If....., one wanted to remain true to original well than it's a no brainer, genuine mahogany would be the only way to go. If, my original rudder had not been so badly neglected and poorly botched repairs from previous owners, I see no reason to have changed it. But...such was not the case for me, so a completely new rudder and all associated components (tiller, tiller head from Spartan Marine, bearing, shaft, shoe, strap, etc.) will grace her as well.
    Because I have elected to use the alternate profile (constellation style), and that it will be composite built, it is critical to use a quality core. For my application, one the fore mentioned was decided on, the core material was an easy choice. Stiffness, flatness, designed for submersion, time tested, all were factors. Just as important is not mixing metals, ie: stainless shafts with bronze straps and shoes, IMHO. Of course to each their own, and I don't claim to be an expert, just try to continue with the best effort I can bestow on Ceili.
    Of course the rudder being "critical", I have been slow to proceed, and want the peace of mind that when complete, Ceili's rudder will out last my stewardship of her, and will serve her decades into the future.
    If any folks are interested in a phone conversation, I can be reached evenings at home: (252) 336-7441.

    Wish I was sailing this spring, like many of you will be. Enjoy. I dream of broad reaching and close beats, every time I climb up into Ceili for my gentle work.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283
    Ceili, Commander #256 is available. Still considered in the project phase, but much work done in the 2-1/2 years I have been steward of her. She sits on a 2008 Triad trailer and I will not part her out nor separate from the trailer. I will not even consider offers lower than 5K, which is what I paid for the trailer alone. For those who are seriously interested, contact me directly at my home number of: 252-336-7441.
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283

    Seacocks and thru hulls for cockpit drains

    For those that may like to see, today I finally installed the thru-hulls, sea cock valves and plumbed them in for the new cockpit drains.
    Attached Images        
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
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    More photos of cockpit drains

    Here's a few more photos.
    Attached Images        
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283

    Companion way glass work

    Here's a couple of shots of the glass work I did surrounding the companionway.
    Attached Images      
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  12. #132
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283

    Companion way glass work

    Here's two more shots of the underside area.
    Attached Images    
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720
    Chance

    I've always been impressed with the quality of your work. Very nicely done.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  14. #134
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Camden, NC
    Posts
    283
    Jerry,
    Thank you for the kind compliment. Like you and other great stewards of our beloved vessels, I am constantly amazaed or better, completely impressed with the talents, skills and craftsmanship that folks here on the forum exercise in getting and maintaining their respective Ariels and Commanders in sailable form.

    The attached photo is bitter sweet for me. It was taken yesterday following the cockpit drain installation and shows "Ceili" still waiting patiently in what has become her "slip" since November of 2008, which is when I started on her.

    Still much to do, and with resources depleted, I have yet to wet her bottom sides and sail her. Another summer (the third) is here and I have not completed her, sad......
    Attached Images    
    Respectfully,
    Chance Smith
    (Formerly) Sea Sprite 23 #760 (Heritage)
    (Formerly) Commander #256 (Ceili)

  15. #135
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720
    Chance

    I suppose there are others that understand your pain but I can promise you I FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Life has a way of continually hindering my project and it is SOOOOO frustrating. I am really tired of looking at Destiny in the reconstruction phase and no matter how hard I push on getting her done it just seems like there is way more to do than I wish was left. But wishing does not get her done so I just keep plowing ahead.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

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