Commander #256 (Ceili)

[Chance]

Tony,
Thank you. I took me some time to finally come up with the final profile of what has now become the "new" forward and aft lower chain plate knees. I had a general idea of what I wanted, then through pattern evolvement, I achieved what I was looking for. Honestly it would have been much easier to glass in a knee that had a strainght or tappered inner edge instead of the curved profile I chose, but.....when I made that pattern, it looked too big and obnoxious. Plus, for me, subtle curves can be made to look good if one takes the time to glass them into the surrounding vessel's hull and overhead.
Okay I have to admit, I am motivated to continue progress, it's just that my work / progress pace seems to be so much slower than all the other talented folks on this site. I never had a completion date in mind when I began, but then again, I didn't see all the issues / improvements / personalization that have revealed them selves to me over my two years of stewardship of "Ceili". I just want to do right and ensure that when she is back in sailing trim, she'll be on point.
Sorry to hear about the low tempatures on your end. For me, anything below 50 brings me to a near stop. But here in NC, where still in the 60's.

Ebb,
White oak is perfectly acceptable for use in the marine industry as I'm sure your well aware of, however "red" oak belongs in the home and on land. Despite the degradation of the white oak "wedge" I pulled out of the bilge on "Ceili", I'm confident that had I left well enough alone, it would have continued to serve in the capacity so designed by Pearson. But....., it's like me to not settle for "mediocrity" and felt I could do better. For me the equation seems to be 40% money, and 60 % time / labor, and I'm sure that many folks at Pearson could have done the same if they didn't have to perform under strict timelines and a budget. Like others, I refuse to add up how much in material alone, I have devoted to "Ceili", it's definately been a journey thus far and our bonding only increases with time. Now if only I could be sailing!

To all, have a great evening.

[Chance]

Here's a few more close up photos

[Chance]

The saw zaw made efficient work of removing the original glassed in fiberglass drain ports for the port and starboard cockpit drains. A while back I also removed the fiberglass drain port for the galley sink and properly restored the hull.
Here's the majority of the parts I have assembled for the new cockpit drains that will incorporate seacocks. It took some time today, but I got the 3/4 inch thick, G-10 garolite backing plates milled. Still have a little more work to do on them, scheduled for tomorrow.

[ebb]

WOW!
Those Garolite donuts are incredible!
Mo' betta than ply!


But there's something more to your array of bronze goodies.
My attention for many years has not been on bronze seacock/thru-hull hardware.
What I think I'm seeing is a fantastic 3-bolt flange adaptor base that makes it possible to use
in-line ballcocks as seacocks.

Haven't a clue how long they have been on the market.
Haven't seen em up close and personal.
But if the flanged adapter is NEW it is an astonishing innovation from an established traditional marine hardware maker. Assume it is Groco.

Looked it up quickly, looks like Groco has patented the fixture.
Altho it seems so obvious that it always should have been in their catalog.

It's evident that the adapter is aimed at us:
the upgraders, renovators of good ole boats. Would never be an OEM.
It is also a strong statement to the marine industry that putting an inline plumbing valve directly on
an unsupported tail-piece -the thru-hull- is not sanctioned by the manufacturer, Groco.
They have a disclaimer on their website, that it is bad practice.
So coming up with a SAFE and logical solution for us is, imco, responsible marketing.
[It has been around for at least 2 years - looking at dated forums.]


I'd be interested to see how far down the in-line valve seats on the tapered thread of the adapter. It would have to screw on nearly that whole distance to make me happy. I subscribe to the 800 pound side load test on any thru-hull valve assembly.
The guy who calls himself MaineSail on Sailnet seems to be really impressed with this Groco 3-bolt flange adapter. A keen observor.
He says the leftover material on the tube section is as thick as found on their seacocks. The threading for the thru-hull is NPS - straight. The male thread on top of the adapter is NPT for the in-line plumbing valve - and tapered. The way the adapter is designed the male and female threads do not share the same wall.

What's neat about this is that the inline valve, just the ballcock, can be unscrewed and replaced if it freezes up. That appeals to all of us with busted budgets.
Because the adapter base is mechanically attachted to the hull.
If the base is installed waterproof, the thru-hull becomes a LINER (to coin a term).
I can see the thru-hull screwed in using teflon tape and bedding compound rather than permanent rubber adhesive. There is little chance of a leak developing here with the flanged base installed tight.
It would make later work on the hole a piece of cake.
Certainly far easier and cheaper than replacing a traditional seacock that develops a problem.
That is what makes it a great choice. Something is bound to happen to the valve.
This way you can easily replace with a spare - without making a federal case out of it.
This is a quantum leap in thru-hull valve systems!!!! It really is almost unbelievable.

Chance, looking forward to seeing how you do it!



'Course Pearson did it a lot cruder.... uglier even....
and cheaper.... but
you have to say their 'thru-hulls' lasted pretty good all these many years

FORSPAR. Wake up!
GOOD OLD BOAT. You wake up also!
PRACTICAL SAILOR. Wake up!

[Chance]

Ebb,
Concur with your assessment and nicely written opinions, all well founded.
It is odd that one can find, throughout the marine industry, in-line ball valves screwed directly on thru-hulls. This is a major problem for a couple of reasons:
1) The thread pitch is not the same. As you mentioned, Thru Hulls have NPS threads and valves, fittings, etc., all have NPT threads. They should not be joined, but yet....it so often is the case. Even paid "yard" personnel will do this, presumably to save a buck, or reduce the effort.
2) The load is carried mostly by the thru hull fitting (in this case) and this is unfortunate for the same reasons that "backing plates" are so essential / critical on deck hardware. For without a flange and a backing plate, there is little to transfer the load evenly to the hull.
3) Removing an entire traditional seacock for whatever reason involves removal of the thru hull and that can be a royal pain.

Yes, I have chosen GROCO. Hamilton Marine up in Maine is who I ordered the flange adapters and associated bronze plumbing hardware from.

Here's a what little progress I made today:
1) contoured the outer edge of the garolite backing plate
2) drilled (6) holes and tapped them to receive the 5/16-18 studs for securing the flange adapter to the hull.
3) Made the studs from machine screws. It's cheaper to buy the screw and cut off the head than to buy all thread.

In case your wondering, I have chosen to use a "stud" mounting option rather than completely thru bolting, because:
1) it eliminates having to drill (6) more holes in the hull.
2) will still accomplish the same objective, perhaps with a bit less strength.
3) Provides a future option to drill all the way through and run machine screws that have been countersunk into the outer hull, then faired smooth.

[ebb]

Chance,
It looks like you wrote the book on this subject.

From the color of the material can guess you got G10 Garolite which is made with glass fabric and epoxy. So it should marry well with the hull. Even if you are not through bolting the adapter flange through the hull.
For any reader inspired by this method, it will depend on the quality of epoxy used to glue the plate to the polyester hull.

I can see doing it.
Most interesting and innovative is tapping the Garolite for threaded machine screws (or rod) to attach the flanged adapter.
Imco most normal and DIY glass reinforced plastics would be two friable for tapping in threads.
This may be a caution to others trying it.
There are denser Garolites composed of cotton and linen impregnated with phenlic resin that would take threading - BUT might be problematic cold gluing/bonding dissimilar plastics with epoxy.
Impressed with your compassionate reasoning that looks ahead, making it easy for the next fool with his head in the bilge.
It is also conceivable that the Garolite disk itself - with the adapter fastened to it - can be through bolted to the hull - IF NEEDED.
[For Ariel/Commander owners this could be a problem because the hull might not be thick enough to take the chafering needed to bury flathead bolts.
I found the hull on A338 to be too thin for 5/16" flatheads and had to add layers of epoxy and Xmat inside. Not a bad idea, just another expensive step.]


Chance, can we see what the valve looks like on the adapter?

Not only do you write book, you illestrate it too - excellent photos!

[Chance]

Ebb,
Your correct, I chose G-10 Garolite. Ordered it from McMaster-Carr. Don't know if you have used it before, but....it is very, very dense. Taps well but is hard on the hands to run the tap on through. Did I say it is very dense? It also dulls any blade you through at it quickly. If using a jig saw, use metal cutting blades and have plenty of them. Also, I have only cut up to 1/2 inch with a jig saw. These backing plates are 3/4 " thick, and very expensive. A 12" X 12", 3/4 " thick plate of G-10 will cost you $75.89 delivered. Garolite is formed under pressure, therefore the density is achieved with a high glass content and not too much resin. You are correct, they hull of my Commander was too thin to properly countersink a FH machine screw. I would have had to add material, which by making these garolite backing plates, I have. They will be permanently attached / bonded to the hull with thickened epoxy. I'll post more photos shortly, per your request.

[Chance]

I spent the afternoon locating the placement of the new thru-hulls for the cockpit. Drilling the 1-7/8" hole for each of them, and bonding the garolite backing plate to the hull. I have spent so much time glassing in "old" holes, both from Pearson and POs, that I took a break before running the large hole saw through the hull....twice!

The two hull core samples revealed a port thickness no thinner than 5/16" and the starboard no thinner than 7/16". Yes, the variance could be contributed to hand lay up, but.....the workers didn't adhear to a strict layup schedule, thus the 1/8 in difference in the same area of the hull.

Here you go Ebb:

Note: The valve is only dry fitted at this time, but the street elbow has been bonded to the adapter as can be seen by the white. I chose 3M 4200 for this joint. Will use megalock for the other joints.

[ebb]

Connection between adapter and valve looks very shippy.
Can certainly see that if you have tight quarters
and have to have the handle in a certain position
that a dry fit to see where stuff ends up after assembly is in order.

google> Cruisers Forum Groco vs Conbraco Valves
it's 2 pages long.
There you'll find MaineSail in a great rumble about the virtues of the adapter system.
And I think on the next page someone with the same concern I have
about how much metal is left after threading: you'll find photos of golden pipe threads and digital calipers.

What's left is the thickness of a penny! but that might have been a Conbraco valve.

Another concern is what the material the ball and valve stem are made from.
Only 316L (passivated) is close on the galvanic scale to 85-5-5-5*, the alloy Groco is suppiosed to be using. This IS the reason to have the inline ball valve for easy replacement.
Don't know if parts are replacable inside a Groco ballvalve.

My Marelon seacocks cannot be serviced. Imco Lanocote applied with an acid brush is the best thing we can do for the ball - which keeps the lever easy to turn.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________
*85-5-5-5: copper - lead - zinc - tin.
is a casting alloy with good corrosion resistance due to the tin in the formula.
It is placed about half way between brass and bronze on the copper chart. It's non-marine name is red brass.
The Brits call it gun metal, I think. It machines well and most sailors don't seem to have a corrosion problem with the bodies of the alloy in seawater.
They may have to be wired and/or zinced.

[Chance]

Here's a little snap shot of the new bulkheads I installed. Notice that I integrated the web knees that are normally found on Commanders. I have been using solely Okume marine ply for the reconstruction. Those with a close eye for detail may spot a few other things I have done, but have not photo shared as of yet.

Good day.

[Chance]

For those that may be interested and specifically for Joe who asked, here you go:

Price (each): Qty: Part #: Nomenclature: Source:
$2.87 8 502674 1-1/4 to 2-1/4 AWAB hose clamp DefenderMarine
$5.85 1 AWA-125015P Rubber Tail Tips (Bag) Jamestown Dist.
$11.64 1 MMM-05260 3M 4200 Fast Cure 3 oz. Jamestown Dist.
$83.90 1 SHI-2521124 ShieldsAUST 1-1/2"X12-1/2' Jamestown Dist.
$68.76 1 8667K221 G-10 Garolite, 3/4", 12"X12" McMaster-Carr
$62.99 2 GRO-IBV-1500 Ball Valve, BRZ 1.5" Full Flow Hamilton Marine
$.50 6 112339 Hex Nut, Bronze, 5/16" Hamilton Marine
$.50 6 113696 Flat Washer, Bronze 5/16" Hamilton Marine
$.25 6 113782 Lock Washer, Bronze 5/15" Hamilton Marine
$1.33 6 111353 Machine Screw, Bronze FH Hamilton Marine
$14.99 2 GRO-PTH-1500 Adapter, Pipe to Hose 1.5" Hamilton Marine
$22.99 2 MTL-44-167 Elbow, Street 1-1/2", BRZ Hamilton Marine
$42.99 2 GRO-IBVF-1500 Flange Adapter Base, 1.50" Hamilton Marine
$31.99 1 GRO-TH-1500-L Thru HUll 1-1/2", W/O Nut Hamilton Marine
$40.99 1 GRO-TH-1500-W Thru Hull 1-1/2", With Nut Hamilton Marine

Note: Prices above are for "each" and do not include shipping / handling fees from each supplier.

[Chance]

A bit more progress made:

[Tony G]

Once again Chance, you have awed me with your work on Ceili. If it wasn't -5 outside I'd more inspired to do something on the boat driven soley by your posts here!

I do have one question regarding your install above. What keeps the studs from turning in the garolite pads as you work the nuts down onto the the flange? More importantly, what keeps them from turning out as you loosen the nuts for whatever reason? Perhaps I missed something in your posts above, and, if I did I apologize for dragging it out. I suppose if you did discover that the nuts had seized to the threaded studs while doing maintenance sometime in the future you could simply back both out and thread in some 1" bolts. Then again, how just how often do you intend to loosen those nuts once she is in the water? I guess my question is kind of pointless now that I've read it...

[Chance]

Tony,
-5 degrees, lord have mercy! It's only November! Your question above is something I considered when in the planning phase, of which there are a few options:
1) Leave the studs in the garolite pads "DRY". As for tightening the nuts down on the flange, they would be turning clockwise, the same direction the stud would turn. Once the stud reached the bottom of the tapped hole it would effectively become bottomed out, and would stop turning.
2) If the nuts were to "seize" on the studs upon disassembly, one could just back out the stud all together and insert another. No problem.
3) I used unthinkended epoxy to lock the studs in the tapped holes. If you so desired you could coat the threads of the studs with a mold release first.
4) To remove the studs that have been "locked" in epoxy, I will heat the stud using either a soldering iron or a small torch, after heating a bit, I would use a wrench on a double nut set up to break free from the epoxy and unscrew the stud.

I don't really forsee a "routine" occurence in having to remove the studs, so I wasn't too concerned with making them a little bit of work in removing.

I would be more concerned with the type of bedding compound used to "SEAL" the thru-hull and the ball valve to the flange adapter. I used 3M 4200 for the other joints, but will most likely be using Sika Flex 291-LOT for the thru hull and ball valve. I have used Sika Flex 291-LOT in other thru hull work on another boat I had at one time, and it works well.

I may also use Boatlife's Life-Caulk, which is a polysulfide "sealant", that of which I have used also, with no concerns.

[ebb]

Chance,
Option 1) and 2) in the above post seems the most shippy
if take apart is more important than aggressive sealing and gluing.

Bronze takes epoxy pretty well
so gluing the studs in, imco, they'll never be backed out even with the most nasty pair of visegrips!

Was thinking how to keep aggressive sealants away from the thru-hull.
But maybe for you that's not necessary.
Still, to remove the adapter in the future, the thru-hull will have to be backed out.
I've been convinced that the thru-hull should seat into
the adapter or seacock with teflon tape. Squeeze-out from the adapter flange sealant might be a problem.
Could install the adapter - then after the rubberseal is set
cut away any squeeze out inside the thru-hull hole from outside. Problematic.
Especially with viscous sealants. Cowards like me use butyl tape.

Don't recall what the pundits say about using Lanocote on the underwater NPS threads of a thru-hull? But given its rep, it might work well.
And you could load the thru-hull top to bottom with the grease - any squeeze out of THIS stuff will lubricate the valve ball!
Just being a trouble-maker!


I've been getting the wood pieces together for the dropboard framing and thresh-hold around the companionway. Also a new lexan sliding hatch.
Have successfully embedded bronze nuts with epoxy into some pieces that I didn't want thru-bolted. The idea is to allow assembly and later dis-assembly from one side.

To keep the all important nut threads from getting epoxy in them
I brushed a little Lanocote on the machine screws used for the mock-up and let the embedded nuts set. Just the nuts embedded not the whole hole or the screws.
Then backed out the bolts.
Any overage of epoxy in a hole with a nut is also 'tapped'.
This method also lines up the male and female parts making for a smooth match up every time. The bolts back right out no problem - a little tight at first.