Commander #256 (Ceili)

[Chance]

Jerry,
Thanks for the positive feedback. Your keen observations and attention to deatail are point on.
You are correct, I remove the excess glass (along the painters tape) upon each lay-up layer, but instead of cutting it I use a 3/8 dowel with a small piece of 100 grit to sand the fabric down to the tape. I have been renewing the tape upon each layer, but tonight I left it in place and will see about leaving it in place for the duration. Just so long as it is not disturbed via sanding, it should not be a problem.
I also use many pieces of tape to hold the fabric tight to achieve a nice clean round over along the bottom and top edges.
You are correct about the aluminum. I used a piece of 1/8" X 2" and it definately has allowed me to ensure complete encapsulation of the wood core. It also permits a nice crisp edge to sand back to during each lay-up layer and will facilitate a trailing edge target thickness of 3/8".
You are correct. Upon laying the final layer of fabric, I'll roll on straight epoxy, probably three coats to fill the "weave", then I'll use microballons (cabosil for fairing is unnessary) to conduct the final fairing. But...before painting, I'll coat the entire rudder foil with at least two coats of Interlux barrier coat (I think it's E2000, can't remember off the top of my head if that's the correct number).
Tips, remember not to use too much epoxy on the cloth, you don't want it to float. The saturated cloth achieves the strength, excess epoxy just adds unnessary weight and brittleness. It is much easier to round and bend lighter fabric, you just have to have the patience to use more layers, also use care in the lay out of the fabric so you don't have to sand alot. Also watch that you don't sand "through" the layer of glass you just applied. The best application can be achieved by using 3" epoxy roller sleaves on an oridinary 3" paint roller.

[Commander 147]

I really enjoy learning from someone that has the patience to do the job the right way and not just rush to get it done.

So let me see if I understand your process. You stretch out a layer of cloth and hold it in place with tape on the opposite side of the rudder so when you wet it out it stays put. Is that correct? You don't wet the surface prior to laying out the cloth. And when the cloth is held in place with the tape you use the roller to wet it out and get a nice even coating of epoxy resin.

Something you said has me a little confused. I've been told previously that some cabosil is always required or the epoxy will never stiffen up to a fairing compound consistancy. And my personel experience with the micro ballons has seemed to bear that out. So when I mix a fairing compound I use about 2/3 microballons to 1/3 cabosil for my thickening agents. Are you able to get a thick enough fairing compund that it won't sag with just microballons?

[Chance]

Jerry,
Here's a bit of clarification:

For this application, I am laying the fabric on "dry", then I wet out with the roller. I also use a glue brush (sometimes referred to as acid brushes) to assist in the wet out in tight areas and along the control lines (near the blue painters tape). The tape is use on the fabric comes into use "after" I have conducted the wet out phase. It is not used to hold the fabric, but to aid in ensuring the fabric bends and tightly conforms to my small roundover edges along the top and bottom of the rudder. I wet out the fabric (glass cloth, 6 oz in this case) from the center, rolling from the center up to the top of the rudder, then from the center down to the bottom of the rudder. I work from the shaft side and finish up along the trailing edge. Once the top horizontal surface is fully wetted out. I use the glue brush to pre wet the vertical edges along the top and bottom, then I use small pieces of tape to pull the fabric over along the edge and back over to the opposite side of the rudder.
Be sure to control the epoxy and don't get too carried away with using too much in this area. Where I have the tape on the fabric (back side) should not get epoxy. The aim is to achieve an overlap joint and only to epoxy the upper rounded over edge.
In my experience, when it comes to mixing thickners, fillers, etc., I sometimes use a "brew", and utilize a mix of my own. However, for fairing, I have always been able to use West System 407 (low density filler) which is a blend with a microballon base. I can achieve the thickness or viscosity I want by the amount I add to the epoxy batch. It is true, that I have added a wee bit of colloidal silica at times, but not always. Plus, you more other stuff you add, it defeats one of the objectives of being "easily" sandable upon full cure.
Also, when I'm done with the glass lay up and fill the weave with additional coats of epoxy, a minimum of two maybe three coats, there should be very little "fairing" to do. The fairing process should be conducted prior to the glass lay up schedule. A good glass lay up requires a good, fair base. Fairing compound is not used to cover up a botched glass lay up. From my photos you can see that I already faired the rudder, it's clearly visible through the cloth, as a medium brown color.
Don't forget to maintain a lay up schedule log as you go, so you know how many layers you've applied and on what side.
Here's more shots taken tonight, that help illustrate the above. Hope I have made sense of all this.

[ebb]

you'll find the glass will wrap much easier the more you arrange the cloth to bend on the bias.
The more 45 degree you have the more docile the glass on a wrap becomes.

[Chance]

Ebb,
Thank you Sir. Your feedback jogged my memory as I remember coming across that sometime ago.
You sparked an idea I'm contemplating, and that is to try and use 10 oz, instead of 6, for one on my lay ups, and see how that goes. The key to success is what you brought to my attention, orientating the fibers at a canted 45 degress to the the round over.

Thanks again.

[Commander 147]

Chance

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain all of that for me. It was very helpful in helping me to understand your actual process. And my experience with microballons is with pure microballons that I buy from a local fiberglass supply place and not a blended product like the west 407 which probably has enough cabosil in it to help it stiffen up.

One of the first things I read when I was trying to learn how to do glass work is that you don't want to use any more epoxy than is necessary to get a good wet out. Which is something I have tried to adhear to in my work. But your comment about not wanting to use so much epoxy that you "float" the glass made a lot of sense to me. I can see how if the glass floats up from the surface below it is a much weaker bond.

I assume after the epoxy hardens you trim the excess glass with a sissors or sharp knife and then with a sanding block carefully sand down the rough edge to make a smooth surface for the next layer of glass to roll over.

Thanks again Chance for taking the time to help me learn. And Ebb thanks for your comment also I did not know about the bias trick so that was very helpful also.

[ebb]

When putting dry cloth on a mostly horizontal surface, wetting out the surface first gets the surface primed/soaked and filled well.
Use a marker pen to make guide lines to lay your cut-to-pattern dry cloth on the wet surface.
After the cloth is on you can just pour a puddle and spread the epoxy over the surface with a GREEN PLASTIC SPREADER. They seem to be everywhere. Certainly in a paint store - don't mess with the yellow or red variety! There is a larger and stiffer BLACK plastic speader you should have at hand.
The spreader is pliable and yet stiff enough that you can pull the liquid around and still press the epoxy into the weave. And also as you point out remove excess. I've never had an unused/new green spreader hook onto the cloth and pull it out of shape.

Lighter weight cloth probably has to be laid on the work dry and then juiced. Because you might get a wrinkle that would be hard to squeegy out without messing the weave up. But personally I've never had that problem with modern clioth.

The same technique can be used with Xmat except you can't go over it too many times to pull the liguid around. You'll find that material can be wet out first on some plastic film and then lifted off and placed on the PRE-PRIMED work. Use the green spreader as a squeegy to press the mat onto the work. Xmatt will get pulled apart if poked with a brush too many times.

Cloth is better imco for covering and wrapping the rudder as you are doing.
Don't forget you can probably use peel-ply (polyester suit lining, nylon taffeta or fabric) to pull your wraps and corners real tight. If you use this won't-stick-to-the-laminate cloth to pull your corners tight you will avoid sanding the weave of the lay-up in these critical areas. If epoxy squeezes thru the peel ply when wrapping wipe it off with paper towels.

Imco making a gel with just cabosil/aerosil/fumed silica is stronger and totally compatible with the cloth lay up. I'd be a bit wary of introducing 407 between layers!
The gel, if you are using it to fill the weave of the cloth to get a smooth finish is much harder and more difficult to sand than the 407. But it should go on befor the 407 easy sanding filler.

Sorry, but I should add a caution that if you are using West Systems/Gougeon Bros epoxy you have to be sure to remove any blushing befor you sand or befor going on to the next layer if you let the epoxy go off. Epoxy won't stick to the blush.

It's great to see your closeup progress fotos.
Can't wait to see the result!!!!

[Commander 147]

Chance

Have you finished the rudder yet? Should would enjoy seeing a picture of it's current stage.

[Chance]

Jerry,
No, not quite finished yet. However here is the layup schedule I have completed thus far:

I have applied 4 layers of 6 ounce cloth, and 4 layers of 10 ounce cloth to both the port and starboard sides.

Today, I applied the 5th layer of 10 ounce cloth to the port side and will apply the 5th layer of cloth to the starboard side tomorrow.

I will then access to see if any additional 10 oz layers will be applied. I plan to finish with 2 additional layers of 6 oz for the final lay up. These last two layers will wrap the edges in alternating passes. Thus the edges will receive 24 ounces of additional and final fabric, while the face of the rudder will only see 12 more ounces.

Here's the photos I just took this evening for you.

[Commander 147]

Chance

I dare say you are going to have one of the best built rudders in the fleet!!! I hope mine comes out even close to yours in quality.

We finally got our first day of fall today. The humidity levels were down and I don't think it even made it to the middle 80's today. It was great. I was out there working on Destiny all day.

[Chance]

Here's the updated rudder.

[Chance]

A few more photos.

[mbd]

Awesome work as usual - beautiful! I can't imagine the hours that work of art took to make. It looks hefty - what does that baby weigh?

[Ariel 109]

Beautiful work Chance. You should be working for Spirit Aerosystems building fuselages. I know they have a plant down around your parts.

Ben

[Commander 147]

Chance

I don't know how you sneaked this update in with out me seeing it yesterday but all I can say is WOW!!! what an impressive job you have done. Ceili has a rudder that will never fail and will probably outlive most other parts of the boat. Very impressive work. So are you ready to start one for me now???? Mine will need a propeller aperature please.

You know you tell me I pay attention to detail, but it is obvious you are a master at it. From your pictures I cannot see a single flaw in your work. And that is unusual to say the least. Well done.