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Thread: The oft discussed outboard extra ballast revealed

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Lutherville, Maryland (near Baltimore)
    Posts
    195
    The difference comes from the fact that the compensation ballast in the Commander is making up for the lack of an inboard motor and the weight of the extended cabin of the Ariel. Most PHRF systems give a different rating to each boat indicating that their weight (when sailed with the designed weight installed) isn't quite the same even with the installed lead. The somewhat old information in the chart on the Pearson Information page notes this:

    http://www.pearsoninfo.net/info/phrf.htm

    The Ariel scores an average PHRF of 255.5 and the Commander 250.5. I know that current numbers used by local sailing clubs on the Chesapeake are 252 for the Commander and 257 for the Ariel.

    Sadly, nobody registered an Ariel or a Commander in the Chesapeake Bay Yacht Racing Association in 2008 (CBYRA runs the major races on the bay). A number of them ran in Wednesday night local races in smaller clubs. I intend to put my Commander out there in 09 in the non-spinnaker class. I don't expect to win but I'm looking forward to a number of good days on the water with some friends.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,546

    this little piggy

    For the record,
    A-338 came with a form-fitted 120# pig with an iron ring in it exactly like the rings I cutoff that were sticking out of the 'encapsulated' ballast. It is shaped like Mike's (post 37) to fit right behind the end of the glassed-in ballast in the bilge.

    Somebody must have really hated this little piggy because there are a bunch of hammer marks embedded in the S.O.B. top!
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
    The pig is 9" long - 7" tall - and 6" wide at the wide end.
    Bathroom scale weight - 120#
    A cubic foot of lead comes in at 708#
    A cubic inch at .40969# at room temp.
    Getting an estimate of the weight of the added pigs doesn't help with the curve of the bilge, does it? But maybe you could ballpark a guesstimate by averaging the angle at 45 degrees.....?
    Last edited by ebb; 11-25-2008 at 05:26 PM.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Asst. Vice Commodore, NorthEast Fleet, Commander Division (Ret.) Brightwaters, N.Y.
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    1,823
    Wonder what I have under there.

    Its all glassed over and looks like a shallower bilge than 227

    This picture was taken from underneath the stern-most floorboard looking forward

    http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/a...1&d=1142982282

  4. #49
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Excelsior, Minnesota
    Posts
    323
    I think you have the same pig, perhaps a PO brought the rest of the bilge up to the level of the top of the pig. The lift ring looks the same as on 227.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Narragansett Bay, R.I.
    Posts
    597
    that's curious.. A-231's bilge looks equally shallow, but my lift rings are on the centerline. it would be interesting to get some measurements from the bilge to the floorboards on a couple boats to see how similar/different they are in profile.

    it might take an xray or a thermal imager to know what is really down there without breaking out a saw.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Lutherville, Maryland (near Baltimore)
    Posts
    195
    sure looks like what I have in Commander 270. Mine has an extra layer of glass laid over it and is nicely painted by previous owner.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
    Posts
    2,243
    Quote Originally Posted by bill@ariel231 View Post
    that's curious.. A-231's bilge looks equally shallow, but my lift rings are on the centerline.
    Those rings are likely attached to the main external ballast located in the keel.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Francisco - or Abroad
    Posts
    430
    C-227 I have the exact same lead Pig. My bilge is fully glassed and is fairly shallow - and dry...

    I like the stiffness of the boat and had not considedred taking it out...

  9. #54
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Excelsior, Minnesota
    Posts
    323
    Quote Originally Posted by Rico View Post
    I like the stiffness of the boat and had not considedred taking it out...
    My wife is also a fan of a stiff boat, as would I be if I was sailing in the conditions you've been sailing in for the last few weeks, But 227 is doomed to a fate of sailing on an inland lake. Also, with my converting to an electric inboard, If I'm going to have an extra 500 lbs of lead ballast on board I'd like it to be swimming in acid and doubling as fuel.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Excelsior, Minnesota
    Posts
    323

    C.c.r.

    (Commander Compensator removal)
    I know it wasn't hurting anybody... but dang it irked me knowing it was down there on those days with drifting conditions. On heavy days I can always throw in a reef.
    It had to go!!
    The process;
    First I cut the fiberglass tape holding it in place.
    Being the compensator was wider than the hatches and 500lbs pretty unmanageable I cut it in half lengthwise with a saws-all. The notch down the middle made it pretty easy, although I had to lift and pry it back and forth to finish the cut between the hatches.
    To get the halves out I had to slide them back to the deeper section of the bilge and lift the front of the pig out of the aft hatch. I used a stout piece of steel square stock accross the companionway and my vang. I ended up having to throw in a cascade to get 8:1 as I could not get it to budge with 4:1.
    Scrap lead is at $.42/lbs, so now I'm looking for some $215 shiny thing to bolt on the princess.
    Attached Images        

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    714

    I have been contemplating the exact same thing...

    My electric drive will have 500 lbs of batteries and getting that 500 lbs out would bring me back to even. I had wondered how to cut it and now I guess I have me answer. Thanks for posting that. I'm especially happy to know it will come out without cutting up the floor.
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
    Posts
    1,099
    Mike, you are a wild man. I'd like to spend a spell in your shop. There always seems to be something good going on there.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Orinda, CA
    Posts
    31
    I have been very curious about the extra ballast on Ariels/Commanders. Too bad C-227 is not near the SF Bay Area. I have a Triton and have been contemplating ADDING ballast (about +/- 300 lbs). Does anyone in the SF Bay Area have extra-ballast that want to sell? I am willing to pay more than what the recycling centers will pay.

    Ray
    Blossom - Triton 106
    Alameda, California

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Francisco - or Abroad
    Posts
    430
    Ray -
    Most recycling centers will be happy to sell you lead. It is usually in bins and you can pick & choose the pieces you want. It won't take many to get 300 lbs.
    I have not bought lead (Mostly Al), but I have noticed that lead is commonly available in very nice uniform shapes of all kinds - ideal for boat ballast.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,546

    lead with provenance

    I have a number of reclaimed/recycled lead pigs.
    They are more or less 34" long
    5.5" wide
    and 2" deep.
    Semi-circular in section. The lead was cast into split halves of iron pipe from lead-clad wire along the Coast Hiway. Same lead used in the ballast of the Elizabeth Muir.
    Approximately 135# each.

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