I don't understand, Kyle. You say that like it's a bad thing.
I don't understand, Kyle. You say that like it's a bad thing.
This is way out of sequence but I ran across this pic that brought me back...This was taken by my dad the morning we picked-up the little gal. Ahh the fond memories.
Last edited by Tony G; 01-07-2010 at 04:19 PM.
A gem in any form Tony
1965 Ariel #331
'MARIAH'
Well, it's not that I'm afraid of commitment. More afraid of being committed!
It took forever to find the line we were looking for. This is what I've come up with so far. I took as much as I could from the Cape Dory 36 because it has that strong Alberg influence or characteristics. But, being our cabin is shaped considerably different from the CD 36 it wasn't a straight transfer from the specs. My first strike was more in line with the coamings of a Shannon 28. Nice but not what I really was looking for.
There is an aft section still waiting to be built and shaped that the traveler is incorporated into. That section will be much easier to layout. WOW! Nothing is symetrical on this boat. Six different stations for each coaming, not a single angle duplicated! I thought it would be easy to 'throw' a couple of coamings on her.
I think that with a little thought one could design a drop in hatch cover ( for the engine well front opening) with some one pretty large one-way valves that would allow water to drain from the cockpit into the well and out while keeping water out.
A nice looking teak or mahogany cover with horizontal slots cut in, and rubber strips over the slots fastened top and sides on the back would be a good flapper valve. Wouldn't be a perfect seal but the rubber would flex to let water drain out while keeping most water from coming in.
Top-hinged wooden flaps with light elastic to keep them closed could allow for larger openings with better sealing.
Ken.
Hope you don't mind, Tony....
Kendal, yeah, I've seen wood coamings cut for swingout scuppers. Made from the coaming material, the sides were cut on a bevel so that they couldn't swing in. In a normal coaming you can't have many of them in that style. But if done well they would look the best of all alternatives.
We A/C's sail on our ear at times with the rail in the water. Hinged scuppers would open up by their own weight and would scoop water. A hazard. Resistance to opening with a spring or something imco would be difficult to make work.
Attwood and Seachoice make ring scuppers with rubber flappers. OK in a bassboat transom. More interesting are the floating ball valves where returning water pushes a floating ball against the scupper opening. Deck drains and maybe transoms. Looks like there is nothing off the shelf.
It just flashed that if Tony has a concern about water being contained over deck level he could DORADE those boxed coamings. He'd loose some cockpit storage, I think, in the coaming interiors
BUT if said interior was set up like an ondeck Dorade vent box they could be made open to drain and still (unless totally inudated) easily let water out and discourage water in without any flapper or ball gizmos. The width of the coamings allows designing baffles in the drainage channels that could keep water from re-entering. I'm guessing ofcourse.
With molded coamings exits could be bigger and useful. Imagine that they need not be very tall off the deck, maybe an inch or two. But would be some inches long for volume. And more numerous. Imagine a double 'floor' in the coaming box: deck level drain system, upper level storage.
Hinged lids might yet be called for, because water could enter back into the cockpit thru the scuppers from the up side when the boat is tilted.
When the cockpit is filling with big greenies, remove the seatback cushions (if they're not overboard already.)
Last edited by ebb; 07-30-2009 at 03:01 PM.
Tony,
Those coamings look fantastic! You've got the curves just right. A-113 is going to look stout AND shapely. I love that last shot. You can really see how the coamings follow the curve of the deck, no accident, I'm sure.
PS. Keep the pics coming!!
Mike
Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)
Tony,
Is there any rule for the angle of line to the sheet winch?
Some coamings are slanted at a rediculous and unattractive angle.
While other winches seem to sit square and upright..
We've even seen sheet winches horizontal off the coamings - instead of vertical.
If a wedge is used under the winch on flat coamings, there has to be a companion wedge underneath somewhere so that fastenings are square. Complications getting that right.
The line has to want to winde UP on the drum in an orderly fashion, correct?
When I was crewing on Bill's boat there was a cleat thingy on the winches. I never thrusted the convenience thinking a digit could get caught in the jamming process. I imagine a separate jamcleat (like I've often seen) that a singlehander could whip the sheet around and get tight without having to actually touch the winch. With the exception of the winch handle.
Seen winches with a flying camcleat coming out of the base.
How you gonna do it?
Any tips to getting the lead perfect?
Last edited by ebb; 07-30-2009 at 03:30 PM.
Ebb, I purposely keep the word perfect out of my vocabulary. Was it CPete that said perfection is the enemy of progress?
The winches I have call for an ideal line angle of 3-8 degrees to prevent overriding. The science used here was plopping a winch on the coaming along with the turning block in their designated spots. Then I ran some 3/8" line through turning block wrapped the winch and worked backwards to the height of the lead blocks on tracks. That was, of course, for the large percentage head sails. For the smaller head sail we skipped the turning block and moved the lead block forward. I putzed with it for half a day so I hope I got it right. If not, who the #&!! cares we can work with it, let's git 'er wet!
As far as winch placement I figured we'd need a 1/2" pad under the winch and a 1/4" one below the turning block to give a fair lead to the sheets. I have seen some horizontally mounted winches too and it screwed me up! I'm still not the same!
Cool temps and low humidity inspired me to cash in one of my vacation days and break out the grinder. Nothing makes me feel like we're getting something done like a bad itch!
Last edited by Tony G; 08-25-2009 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Originally I thought I had mis-spoken, but, actually I lied.
Tony,
MY vote is for the "dashboard" style on top the cabin. If I could move my current instruments on my current boat, I would in a heartbeat! That way you don't have to take your eyes off the road. Also, if you pick instruments correctly, I doubt you will be punching buttons ever. At most you will want Boatspeed, Depth, and Wind (3 total). Granted, if you want to switch between apparent and true wind, you will be punching buttons, so just pick one and learn to love it!
just my opinion.
When I had my Ariel (#3), I mounted the depth on the aft face of the bridgedeck (in the cockpit well).
What a bad idea!
Whenever we were motoring out I liked to stand to get visibility, but then had to bend way over and stick my head down in the cockpit well to see if we were running aground (depth)! Poor ergonomics. The cabin-top dashboard (or even like the true-racers: on the mast) is the way to go!
-Keith
-km
aka, "sell out"
S/V Beyond the Sea
C&C 35 mkIII
Agree. The IDEAL place for instrument is over the companionway, at the front end. For coast sailing at night I wonder if there is a better location for an illuminated sounder - certainly not in the cockpit well. On an Ariel there aren't too many places.
Tube Bending.
Looked up router bits for making mandrels. There is nothing available to make a deep flute for 7/8". It is possible to have a custom bit made. $$$. So we're stuck with a readily available 1/2"R cove bit.
Shaper bits is another story. If you have access to a shaper, you can more easily find an outfit to custom a 7/8" round nose bit. They would make an absolutely perfect cradle for the tube - While having to make two passes with the router cove bit makes it possible to have a problem with the curve.
So it is likely that 1" tube is what we have to bend.
Making the mandrels will take some doing and care. I would guess the most versatile material is meranti, or birchply. You can glue it up to create a mandrel that has thicker sides, maybe even enough for the flute bit to roll on. We can glue on stuff, fix mistakes no problem.
Another great material is polyethylene - just bought a piece 1" thick, not too expensive. It's cutting board. Can't glue it, but it's as close to wax as solid plastic gets. In the photo of the green bending ap, the white mandrel must be polyethylene.
[Do you notice a little extra radius bend at the bottom of the mandrel? Maybe to take care of springback, right? Give the bend an extra kick in there.]
Stainless tube will love to be bent in this stuff.
And then there is making the bender itself. Are you thinking of doing that?
Found a Utube bending video where the guy filled the tube first with water, then poured in the dry sand. Said to pack in better.
As to wax. Paraffin can't be all that expensive in Minnesota. And for freezing it, all you have to do is open a door and stick the tube outside.
Dono what I'm going to do.
Reinventing the wheel over and over (total remodeling) is taking FOREVER. I have run out of time. I just know that a tube bending guy can take the tube, bend it just right, hold it up in the air over the pattern or the boat itself, and come up with a perfect stern pulpit. - 5 grand!
I will have a full 3D ply pattern that took me a couple months to make, and who knows HOW LONG it would take me to translate into nicely bent double axis tube? Just having to trim 1/4" off the end of a tube seems a chore. (Dang...forgot about the sand!)
Go forit, Tony.
Last edited by ebb; 10-06-2009 at 09:10 AM.
Keith,
Thanks for the realworld input. A couple of years back I lucked out on a sale and got the Navman 3100 series wind, speed, depth with a 'repeater'. The display heads are something like 4 or 4 1/2 inches square. So the main three of them and a compass will be a tight fit above the companion way. Also, I incessantly worry about the compass being thrown off by the readouts. Craig (c_amos)suggested mocking up the dash on a piece of plywood and 'swinging' the compass
Ebb, sir!
I cobbled together a woodie version of the bender in the technical thread. I had hung onto a collection of old plywood cabinet doors from years ago because they were nice, solid chunks of material. Now I know why I carted 'em around for ten years!! A bender they are now!
In the noodling I did, I found all of 'commercial' units did both 7/8" and 1" on the same platen/form/die, whatever you'd call it. So I suspect that 1/8" just don't matter to the pros out there... a million here, a million there... so I used a 1/2"radius cove bit and glued and screwed the two halfs together. A 10" radius seemed like the best bet for what we got planned here. (although there are a couple of 5-6inch radius bends I'm hoping to pull off with a conduit bender) It seems that the crowning machine is the one that will make a big difference in the bow shape and bow strenght. And I haven't started making one of those yet, but it's a pretty straight forward machine. A couple of bolts and a couple of pulleys.
B.s. it's only been in the 40s for the last week. Utterly depressing....
Tony, Yer DOING IT, way to go!
Now here is something we ALL want to see, I'm sure.
Want to see how it goes, lots of photos, OK?
I got the terminology wrong, tho there is some confusion by others too.
Those curved pieces that you bend the tube into ARE dies, CORRECT.
A mandrel is an interior piece like a ball or egg shape or a series of connected rings that just fit into the ID of a tube that keep the tube from distorting or collapsing. I think sand is NOT used in drawing the tube into the die form. Sand filled tube is bent in the 3 roller or where a single point force pushes the tube into a curved form. No roller.
I also read that we need to use the thicker tube if we are using the roller/draw method, because the metal is actually stretched on the outer side to make the curve. This may only be true on very tight radius bending.
The difference in thickness between the thinner and heavy wall s.s tube is .01563 or 1/64" How significant is that in terms of, say, stepping on a short straight piece in the stern pulpit? Can't find any data. Heavier is not always stronger.
Wanna see what happens!
Last edited by ebb; 10-07-2009 at 09:31 AM.
warmer down here
Tony:
We had 85 here today. Ever think of moving your outfit a bit to the sutherd...extended working and SAILING season my friend!
I'm a transplant from Ontario so know the 40's and 30's and 20's in Oct all too well!
Andrew
PS I have been following your progress... great stuff...your work is always inspirational!!!
Tony,
Look into using MDF for your tube bending "forms". shapes easily, and at the thickness you need to grip the tube (1.5") plenty strong. plus you can glue 2 sheets of 3/4" and get your form easily.
I would worry too too much about the compass. My compass is right on my binacle, with all my instruments surrounding it on the old-fashion Edson pods. plus the wheel, along with all it's internals (chain, brakes, screws) that sometimes have ferrous materials. Your nav instruments can't be too bad screwing with the compass. if they are, just get your navman repeater to spit out GPS heading. Close enough for most uses!
-Keith
-m
-km
aka, "sell out"
S/V Beyond the Sea
C&C 35 mkIII
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