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Thread: Fruits Of My Labor (A-113)

  1. #331
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,621
    Tony, Yer DOING IT, way to go!
    Now here is something we ALL want to see, I'm sure.

    Want to see how it goes, lots of photos, OK?


    I got the terminology wrong, tho there is some confusion by others too.
    Those curved pieces that you bend the tube into ARE dies, CORRECT.

    A mandrel is an interior piece like a ball or egg shape or a series of connected rings that just fit into the ID of a tube that keep the tube from distorting or collapsing. I think sand is NOT used in drawing the tube into the die form. Sand filled tube is bent in the 3 roller or where a single point force pushes the tube into a curved form. No roller.

    I also read that we need to use the thicker tube if we are using the roller/draw method, because the metal is actually stretched on the outer side to make the curve. This may only be true on very tight radius bending.

    The difference in thickness between the thinner and heavy wall s.s tube is .01563 or 1/64" How significant is that in terms of, say, stepping on a short straight piece in the stern pulpit? Can't find any data. Heavier is not always stronger.


    Wanna see what happens!
    Last edited by ebb; 10-07-2009 at 09:31 AM.

  2. #332
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Wilmington, NC
    Posts
    95

    Smile warmer down here

    Tony:

    We had 85 here today. Ever think of moving your outfit a bit to the sutherd...extended working and SAILING season my friend!

    I'm a transplant from Ontario so know the 40's and 30's and 20's in Oct all too well!


    Andrew

    PS I have been following your progress... great stuff...your work is always inspirational!!!

  3. #333
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southern Maryland
    Posts
    262
    Tony,

    Look into using MDF for your tube bending "forms". shapes easily, and at the thickness you need to grip the tube (1.5") plenty strong. plus you can glue 2 sheets of 3/4" and get your form easily.

    I would worry too too much about the compass. My compass is right on my binacle, with all my instruments surrounding it on the old-fashion Edson pods. plus the wheel, along with all it's internals (chain, brakes, screws) that sometimes have ferrous materials. Your nav instruments can't be too bad screwing with the compass. if they are, just get your navman repeater to spit out GPS heading. Close enough for most uses!

    -Keith

    -m
    -km
    aka, "sell out"
    S/V Beyond the Sea
    C&C 35 mkIII

  4. #334
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
    Posts
    1,100
    I just hate it when these threads start to die out. So...here is a picture I took this summer of some front-end hardware.

    I'd really like to put a bowsprit/anchor platform on her. I noticed the Nor'sea 27s have a very sharp looking sprit that is not integral to the head sail layout. Finding other examples of the same has proven to be difficult. Anyone here have other examples?
    Attached Images      
    Last edited by Tony G; 11-16-2009 at 01:59 PM.

  5. #335
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Hey Tony, glad to see they finally got electricity to ya in the shop.
    Got to put away those ole kerosene lanterns , eh?
    Nice looking boat!
    Last edited by ebb; 11-16-2009 at 11:47 PM.

  6. #336
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
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    I've been digging around looking at dodger designs that will fit my particular needs. Having a convertible or drop-top feature is pretty easy to accomodate into nearly all dodger designs. That is the 'easy' part. However, the areas that needed addressing here are the extreme 'sweep' outward these new, fatter cockpit coamings have and the not-so-typical mounting location of the dodger main frame on the cabintop. I purposely provided a solid mounting pad on the aft end of the cabintop coamings for mounting hardware being it was easy to do while I was in the area. But, as you all know, traditional dodgers frames are typically mounted on the cabin sides below the plane of the cabin top, or, on the breakwaters at the forward end of the coamings, or, on the coaming itself.

    Years ago Ebb brought to our attention a company called Iverson Design and they had this photo of a Dana 24 with a dodger design that looks like it will fit my needs pretty good. It should be possible to add some removable 'wings' that will extend the dodger sides from the aft bow to a point just forward of the winches if deemed necessary in weather. Otherwise, I think going forward would be a little less restricted by the dodger sans wings. I think a bimini would be a nice addition too for sunnier climes. (read NOT Minnesota) And I am totally with Ebb in the cockpit version of a three season room.
    Attached Images  
    Last edited by Tony G; 01-26-2010 at 04:41 PM.

  7. #337
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    Sep 2001
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    Canvas dodger folks can go around or solve any challenge you come up with - if you are going professional $$$$ with it.

    Probably get a bunch of say 3/4' PVC tube and mock up a structure. Play with the angles, curves, widths and height. Maybe use blocks of wood with the appropriate tube size drilled in them to act as bases.

    PVC is easy to bend into permanent curves with a heat gun or a gas bottle.
    And you may be bending the real stuff yourself.
    Bases for tube come in standard angles - you can plan for them when designing.

    When we get above the deck we have a proportion problem with any permanent structure. But in your shop you'll be able to see your model from every angle - except maybe 30/60 feet off the side where many fotos are taken. The bimini always looks awkward to me. Imco any camping-out structure is forgiven because it's taken down when sailing.
    The dodger, if it's permanent has to be proportional. Doctor Alberg's ROUNDED cabin design imco implies a rounded rather than a squared dodger.Wiill look better especially if it has to be bigger than expected because the Ariel is so small.

    I think the pulpit Pearson put on the bow is only about 24" tall. And it looks right. But it's too short for me unless I'm crawling on the foredeck.
    With the forest of chrome and polished stainless planted on modern cruisers it's becoming more acceptable to our eye to have extra stuff above the sheer line.

    The dodger is not only an aesthetic but a windage problem.
    I don't think you'll have any problem with the aesthetics!
    An all cloth dodger/bimini may be the only solution for an Ariel.
    The 'pram' dodger folds forward and out of the way
    and the bimini is taken down like a tent and stowed when not in use.
    So stanchion bases or even permanent low s.s. tube 'seat backs' around the cockpit can be attachment points for the taller but temp binimi structure.
    Think I want low (but high enough to put an arm up) stepover tubes on the sides of the cockpit placed to lean against when sailing or lounging.

    So I would plant PVC pipe around wherever, and add and remove. Play it out.
    I'd try double sided carpet tape to stick the mock-up wood 'bases'. Use the more expensive stuff that has a fiberglass cloth inside, it allows you to peel it off.

    I've come to see the Ariel as a 3/4 size boat.
    Nearly everything I put in or on lit'lgull must be the smallest size that works.
    If cruising in a rainy area or heading for the tropics a bow to stern bimini would make the whole deck into the 'extra room'. Bigger projects could be tackled or going topside at any time could save your marriage I'd have a closable cockpit salon in any case
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
    Here's something else to consider for camping out
    www.mosquitocurtains.com
    Go to 'PhotoGallery' Unusual #1' for a couple pic of noseeum netting used on a bimini. Some ideas on the tube framing also.
    Last edited by ebb; 01-28-2010 at 02:48 PM.

  8. #338
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Northern MN
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    1,100
    Wow! it's the end of April allready! I finally got to go up and see the love again. Spent some time just sitting in different spots wiping away the accumulation of dust, dirt and any unsavory sign of Old Man Winter's recent visit. I'm still okay with the fatter, taller cockpit coamings. The dodger coamings are still 'on', although I wish I had installed a MUCH larger conduit for the instrument bundle wiring and may have to do a 'radical, post-attached, ectomy of some sort. And the cockpit stowage in the forward section of the footwell? Still leaning in that direction in a not-quite-so-obtrusive design. I know, Craig, I know...

    But down below I still don't have a place to lie down comfortably. And that's a very big thing if one is hoping to gain any restorative powers from sleep. The hard, cold fact of the matter is I've screwed-up! The good thing is all those hours of studying (looking at pictures of) larger boats exposed me to design features I liked and thought useful. The bad thing is I tried to duplicate a +/-40 foot boat in a 25+ foot boat. Maybe it can be done but I haven't done it here. It might look good through a camera lens but doesn't wear well when you're in it. Crap! Crud! Which ever.

    The long and short of it is I'll have to remove a good deal of the work I've done and start over. Hey, it's not such a bad thing. Could be worse. I'll just look at it from the stand point of this boat deserves better and I know I can do better. Realisticly it's going to be a few years before she gets to meet the briney anyway. Besides, with all the captains on this forum doing all work that's going on there will be some really cool ideas to steal!

    Thanks for listening to me snivel and drone on.
    Last edited by Tony G; 04-27-2010 at 09:51 AM.

  9. #339
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720
    Tony....please feel free to vent anytime you need to, but please don't leave us hanging like that. What do you have to take out to accomplish what goal?
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  10. #340
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,621

    Exclamation Re re renovation

    Hey Tony,
    Taking off from Jerry's byline, which sounds very Edisonian to me, and spot on: maybe adding a paraphrase from Edison, The Man and His Work by George S Bryan 1926 on his electric light improvement:

    "The electric light has caused me the greatest amount of study and has required the most ELABORATE EXPERIMENTS
    ....Altho I was never myself discouraged or hopeless about its success, I cannot say that of my associates....
    Through all the years of experimenting with it, I never once made an associated discovery. It was deductive...
    The results I achieved were the consequence of invention - pure and simple.

    "I would CONSTRUCT and work along various lines until I found them untenable.
    When one theory was DISCARDED, I developed another at once.

    "I realized very early that this was the only possible way for me to work out all the problems."


    Perhaps a little long, this - but it describes a process of handling disappointment. Or, obviously, of not getting into that, not giving it any weight, just a step in the process.
    It's the process that's important, that's where the breath and the brain is.

    So if you glued it in, you can take it out, it's only SNOT as Herreshoff called it.

    You have the boat, you have unique ideas, you like the PROCESS, working in the shop,
    otherwise you'd be selling mortgage insurance.

    Edison also is quoted as saying he liked his phonograph invention best.
    Rest assured, there will be music and dancing when launching day arrives!
    Last edited by ebb; 04-27-2010 at 09:19 AM.

  11. #341
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
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    1,100

    The (take it in the) short(s) list...

    Does anyone remember how this all started? I found a little bit of rot at the base of the main bulkhead. Okay, in reality I could peel the plys apart with a phillips screwdriver and not much effort. So just like 10 years ago, one single event precipitates a whole sequence of events, or, changes in this case.

    Without turning a blind eye to what I've known for some time, this is what I feel has to happen.
    1) Raise the remains of the v-berth to both widen the sleeping platform and increase storage. Then add a filler piece, which will make using the head an exorcise if using the v-berth for, I dunno, sleeping.
    2)Excise the plastic water tank. I never tested it for leaks, it's all my water eggs in one basket, has no baffles. Make 2 smaller integral water tanks and still have room left over for storage.
    3)The platform reserved for the head needs to be lowered just incase I have a windfall and get a composter. But incase not, build an integral or 'fits like a glove' holding tank.
    4)Re-reconstruct the starboard storage in the main salon to allow my feet to fit under the cabinets with a mattress underneath when sleeping athwartships. This one really hurts but I think the louvered doors will work up front in the v-berth after the changes come about.

    Those are the wrinkles that I feel absolutely need to be addressed. But it is not inconcievable that something in the main cabin and galley area might need attention too. Like sub-sole storage to name one. Well, what's another 10gallons of epoxy among friends. Right?
    Last edited by Tony G; 05-16-2010 at 10:58 AM.

  12. #342
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    San Francisco - or Abroad
    Posts
    430

    Smile

    Does anyone remember how this all started? I found a little bit of rot at the base of the main bulkhead. Okay, in reality I could peel the plys apart with a phillips screwdriver and not much effort. So just like 10 years ago, one single event precipitates a whole sequence of events, or, changes in this case.
    I can relate to that! I bought the 'Mephisto Cat' not only because I thought it was a beautiful little yacht, but also because I could go sailing on DAY 1 - and DID NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING TO IT!

    Then I found a little soft spot on the lazarette floor and that got the snowball rolling!

    - That's what happens...

    Can't leave things well enough alone!

    Your re-fit looks amazing... And soon you'll be sailing and all the hurdles encountered will be forgotten history...

  13. #343
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Brooksville, FL
    Posts
    720
    Tony

    I truly feel your pain. I spent 20 hours working on C147 this weekend and the longer I worked the more I decided I wanted to do. If we allow them to these things can literally go on for ever. But I enjoy sailing more than I enjoy working on my boat so I'm starting to take the approch of "I will do this much this year and then when I pull her at the end of the sailing season I will do these things".

    I don't know what your sailing plans are after the refit but I had the same issue with the head under the v-birth because my wife and I are getting older and find that the head is more frequently needed in the middle of the night for both of us. I mostly daysail but two weeks a year I go on 1-week long mini-cruises. so I decided to simplify and solve the problem by doing away with the marine head and using a porta potty under the v-birth during the day and pull it out into the cabin during the night. Less plumbing and less things that can go wrong while at the same time solving the problem for us. But we also tend to spend at least every other night in a marina so we can get a good shower and hot meal before we head out for two more days.

    I can't say I can offer any suggestions for number two on your list but my resolution to number one also takes care of number 3 on your list and possibly number 4.

    You are the only one that can determine what is right for you. So of course this is offered only as something to think about. And as a good friend of mine likes to say "Your mileage may vary" :-)

    Sail on _/)~~~_/)~~~
    JERRY CARPENTER - C147
    A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.

  14. #344
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Northern MN
    Posts
    1,100
    Jerry,

    Boy I wish I could only do 'this' much then go sailing. But I've got a loooong way to go before that can happen. Well, in this boat at least. Thanks for the kind words and heart. We all could use a little of that!

    Rico,

    You bought a sail away boat too? I wonder if we took a poll here of how many of us purchased our boats in said shape actually did? Ha-Ha

    Ebb,

    You're still one of my mentors...

  15. #345
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    329
    Tony,

    Fear not the gathering gloom. Watch lights fade in every room. OOOPs, that was a line from one of the old Moody Blues songs, maybe Nights in White Satin??? Anyway, it doesn't apply to you in any case. You know what? I'd do what you have to do to go sailing!!! Looking at the insides of racing boats that have literally NOTHING inside them means that you can do something with whatever is left to do inside your boat! Trust me, when the wind is blowing, especially after dark, and the water is rushing past the hull in the darkness with starry skies above, what is below doesn't matter a bit!!. I sail with a bunch of Hunter Beneteau sugar scoop transom-ed, entertaining oriented 46 footer plus folks in a cruising club here in Texas (and they all have blenders, sat TV, radar, and dinghy's) and my boat is the smallest, least sophisticated, oldest, cheapest, and probably slowest boat on our cruises. But guess what? Everyone loves my boat because it goes where the others can't, takes the seas just as well as theirs, doesn't need more than my hands on the tiller, and looks GREAT when tucked amongst the white massive vessels with all the jazz inside them (see that little blue boat amongst the biggies?). Sooooo! Your goal should be to get the exterior in shape, step the mast, and go sailing. You can have a project below that no one will see or care about!! Go for it!!
    Attached Images  
    Last edited by Hull376; 04-27-2010 at 03:52 PM.
    Kent

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