Fruits Of My Labor (A-113)

[mbd]

Sounds like it's high time for Kurt to start posting some more pics and updates himself!

[Tony G]

No kidding there, Mike! Not only has it been a looongtime coming, but Capt. K has pulled a lot of his photos from this site! That's cutting into my 'research'.

Kurt, I am thinking a composter is the logical way to go...no pun intended. The biggest leap for me was accepting the fact that these hulls are not any bigger than they are. Seems silly, I know, but that is the fact of the matter. Now on we're living within our means in the physical sense. So this guy is really interested in what you've been bouncing around in your noggin. You've lived on board and that is the experience I need to draw on especially when it comes to living space.

And glad you brought up chainplates. I've thought about moving them outside too. Geoff never really addressed what he did, if anything, to the hull for mounting the CPs outside. Some builders go whole hog laying in extra roving and glass where the CP gets bolted. Others incorporate furniture to beef up the area. How much extra(if any) support do you think we need being a smaller boat? And then the nutz-n-boltz stuff like how big, did you make them yourself, how'd polish them, how you're mounting them, etc., etc..

[mbd]

The biggest leap for me was accepting the fact that these hulls are not any bigger than they are. Seems silly, I know, but that is the fact of the matter.

No kidding. When I'm looking at pictures of other boats for my "someday" ideas, the 26-27 foot range is usually in the "wouldn't that be nice" category, whereas the 22 footers are more like "now that could be done". (i.e. the compression post/bulkhead/enclosed head. hint hint!)

Maybe I should start pestering Kurt over on his thread to GIMP it up! Now, I'll let you guys who are actually working on your boats get back to it...

[Bill]

Capt. K has pulled a lot of his photos from this site! ..

Sorry. We lost that setting when upgrading. Attachments no longer removable . . . unless you ask the moderator nicely . . .

[CapnK]

I think I'm sold on the composter idea. The mega-bux unit websites claim "80 uses" for 2 pounds of peat moss, so going solo and assuming 1 use per day, that means I'll get about 2.5 months of usage before I have to empty my 'holding tank'. There's not much that can fail, nothing really mechanically, and that appeals, especially that it negates at least 2 thru-hulls, & there's no fixing costly joker valves or replacing/cleaning tubes full of crud. The space footprint is a lot smaller, too - no tubes or extra space needed for an external holding tank, deck pumpout and below waterline seacock, and tubes to reach those spots...

Right now, I have the bucket sitting down into what was the deep bilge access hole, the square spot under the sink, and so I cannot sit straight up on the throne, the bridgedeck prevents that. But there is ready room to move the contraption forward a bit, if that is needed, for comfort or for someone taller than my 5' 9". Being able to utilize that space normally below the sole really helps a lot.

Chainplates - I'm borrowing a bit from here and there. Craig/Faith has me talked in to using FRP only for purposes of longevity and no maintenance worries, and I'm taking a page from Island Packet with how they distribute the shear forces on their boats.

Their chainplates are basically a grid made of SST plate; think of a sort of elongated TicTacToe board, placed up against the hull inside. Then take fiberglass rope, about a thumbs roundness worth and say 6-8' long, weave it through the grid, and take the two 2-3' 'tails' down onto the hull, getting splayed out farther and farther as you get away from the grid. Think 'long blond ponytail', wet out, and the end spread to cover as much surface area as possible. An upside-down V, where the apex/bottom of the V wraps over the chainplate grid up and around the vertical members, and the tips of the V spread out to distribute the force across a wide area.

I'll use fiberglass pads shaped like below, shooting for thick enough to double hull thickness there, bonded to the hull, and then do the rope thing over those pads to help spread the shear out and down. Bolts come thru the hole in the middle, with big washers and etc...

Regarding the missing pictures - those were linked from my old website, which is why they aren't visible anymore, that site has been gone for 4 years or so... I still have the images floating around, need to check and see if the posts themselves list the image names or numbers so that I could re-upload them... One thing is for sure: It ain't Bills fault!

[Tony G]

Kurt, you're back!

Whoa! Just the thought of having to work on a busted and possibly 'loaded' head is enough for me to consider getting out of sailing! Ok, maybe just sell the boat 'as is' with the crapped-out crapper and buy a different one. And if some folks are put off a bit by the word 'composting' I hear we can call it a 'urine diverting' toilet.

Your chainplates sound very interesting and seem to be a new twist. Is the diagram above your actual chainplate or the backing for chainplate attachment? The IPs have a neat set-up for tying their CPs together and distributing the load. Another plus is the addition of a bonding point for grounding is easily handled too. There are a lot more questions regarding this mod. coming for sure.

[ebb]

I'm a composter too. I got the first one with the miniature seat, I'll always wonder if the name Airhead refers to the buyer. I would definitely get the Nature's Squat, or whatever it's called because it has a more intelligent seat.

BUT, there is a thru-deck for these composters that has always bothered me.
And I have no good solution to its placement.
My composter will be in the remains of the V-berth area on Littlegull.
But wherever you put the thing you have to have a vent AND THE BLOODY HOSE.
The 3" vent itself will work with a solar nicro fan on deck (8" diameter?). Where does it go on an Ariel deck? And how does the hose get to it in the accommodation?

I've thought of adding some sort of half round dorade inspired vents to the outside of the cabin up near the mast. The vent hose to the composter has to be kept in place all the time. Unless there is another solution, that hose is a PITA.


By SST I assume you are talking about stainless steel.
I think interweaving fiberglass 'rope' into holes would be extremely difficult.
You'd be creating odd spaces that would be hard to fill.
AND, since you would not be mechanically fastening the perforated sheet to the hull,
I don't see what is gained by doing this? Plain fiber would probably be stronger imco.

How about carbon fiber, no metal, as some of the racers are doing?
It's available, altho the methodology requires vacuum forming with the stuff.
One intriguing form of cabon fiber is that it is also available in tube form.
You decide the diameter, because it stretches like socks.

It is dangerous to encapsulate s.s.
Though total encapsulation is theoretically possible.
Aluminum plate (6061T6) comes in a variety of perforations.
40% more thickness to aluminum, supposedly equals the strength of s.s.
But you'd have the same encapsulation problem.

Then there is bronze (655). Doesn't matter what you do to it. AND epoxy sticks pretty well if that's what you have to do.
(Littlegull's external chainplates are waiting for me to slap them on. They are all polished and
bling the topsides very nicely. I'm strut bolting through the hull with meranti built-up backing inside. You can cut and shape silicone bronze with handtools.)


Good luck with that frp 'chainplate' idea. Have to see photos!!!

[later edit] Island Packets must have rampant corrosion problems! imco NOT a good idea!
Both with the weld AND with the partial encapsulation of the stainless plate.
Both Pascoe and BrionToss will have you keel-hauled

[Tony G]

Regarding the missing pictures - those were linked from my old website, which is why they aren't visible anymore, that site has been gone for 4 years or so... I still have the images floating around, need to check and see if the posts themselves list the image names or numbers so that I could re-upload them... One thing is for sure: It ain't Bills fault!

Four years!?!? I just did a RipVanWinkle...

I certainly didn't want to imply that I was faulting you or anyone else nor accusing anyone of nefarious intent or activities. I just really like pictures Was it Mike (mbd) that proposed a photo exchange of everybody's personal files of boat stuff? I think that would be an honorable economic stimulus. All thoses CDs getting purchased uptown and then zipping around the country via the mail. The spring before this last I got a CD from CJ & Laura and I still dig looking at the progress and ideas.

That vent may be my next wrinkle. I'm thinking it's nothing right now but it's going to be a...a...well you put it best, PITA. Can anyone here attest to the odor emitted by said vent hose? Is it worse than a chain locker? Maybe it could be vented up there. We have a ventilator there allready and if you add a couple of holes like Frank and Geoff did that might exhaust it. Is it a 2",3",4"hose? If you can get a pumpout hose through the v-berth a vent hose shouldn't be that much more difficult. If you can't hide a seam, celebrate it!

[CapnK]

Instead of a Hyfield, consider perhaps a small (say 1/4"w sheaves) high-load set of blocks w/a 4 or 6-1 purchase, reeved with Amsteel or other synthetic line. Use a normal 1x19 shroud made up shorter than needed with a thimble on the low end, attach blocks with to that with a shackle, and same attachment* for them to your deck fitting. That line could even be led aft so that you could slack the solent when tacking.

Just a thought...

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*...what's the strength rating on a lifeline pelican hook?

[ebb]

Bosun;s Supply have 6" UNRATED CAST 316 pelican hooks for about $24. Bet they are chinese.
Maybe it or something more substantial could be used with a gun tackle?

Can't see having a rope tackle permanently deployed because of UV issues. But why not?
But I'd like to see the set up visavis the staysail and the gear.
IE how and where is the storm sail hanked on?
What pounds are needed to get the stay taut?

In a blow the solent also is helping to keep the mast UP.
In fact that redundancy on a cruiser is it's selling point.

Storm sail should have a set of reefpoints. Correct?

[Tony G]

Kurt, you're there!

My latest google search for solent stay brought up a page with Super Duper Joe Cooper (as I like to call him*) using a multi-purchase block system and high tec lines for both the tensioning and the stay. There was a photo of the 'stay' after some use and it looked pretty worn where the hanks had been working but Joe states that when they stress tested the line to failure it actually parted somewhere other than the worn spots. I believe it was vectran and sspectra lines they used. Now I'll probably find out in a couple of years that this sort of set-up is absolutely outstanding and dependable but right now I just worry that the lines will wearout too quickly. Although it would be easy enough to repair/replace as long as the sails or other equipment doesn't get damaged beyond feild repair.

I was going to add pictures but here is the link. http://www.practicallysailing.com/bl...ailing-rigging

I don't think a pelican hook has the strength we're looking for. Ironic isn't it as they are part of the 'life line' set-up. Figure 9.5 above is in the Pardey's Capable Cruiser 3rd ed. (diagram courtesy the www). I did buy the book and they claim it can easily be made using stainless or bronze and a bandsaw. ?Don't they realize that people like me buy their books? I'm leaning in that direction.

*Joe cooper was the 'customer rep.' that I dealt with for 113's new mainsail and foresail. He would actually check in with me to see how things were going and give me an update on sails and stuff. He was a real personable guy and has a great sense of humor to boot.

[Commander227]

I agree with Epiphany,
We have been replacing wire standing rigging and lifelines with spectra and relatives more and more. Its cheap, incredibly strong, easy to throw in an eye splice or a bowline, you can keep a spool on board and replace anything your self on the go. There are coated varieties that are better with the UV or you can use Rob line or similar and have the spectra core and a nice UV and abrasion resistant cover.

[ebb]

fiber (from the Dynamica site).
5/16" has a 6600# breaking load which is about equal to wire of the same dimension.
If steel wire can take 6500 50% breaking loads (....before what happens?)
Dyamica, dyneema can take 10 million cycles at the same 50% level. That's their comparison.

Very little stretch. If it breaks it won't whip like steel wire.
After two years of constant UV exposure 80% of strength is retained.

Bends recommended at least 5 Xs diameter of rope. Bends for 5/16" Dyneema should be minimum 1 1/2". Sheaves and/or thimbles. Visavis Joe Cooper's experiment.

Defender has a Samson dyneema called Am-Steel-blue for $2.09 ft.
This 5/16' rope has a 13,700# breaking strength. Just repeating the numbers.
It's a 12 strand braided line.
Defender price for 316 1/4" 1X19, 6900#BS = $3.09.

later post....
[Dyneema is seen as an all purpose polyethylene rope. Versatile, bullet proof, floats in water, 40% stronger than Kevlar.
Climbing, towing, mooring, hanging, winching, standing rigging, running rigging.
and picking up on your next post here - why not LIFELINES? Both on the stanchions and tethering a life-ring.
Wouldn't it be nice if our backup rigging is a spool of blue plastic rope that can be used for nearly everything?

Would you do the standing rigging with soft eyes?
Which begs the question, if Dyneema is sensitive to UV why not parcel (friction tape)l and serve (marline) it in the standing rig.
I'm positive galvanized wire is still parceled and served somewhere. Dyneema's downfall is everything SHARP. Serving it would stiffen and protect it.
Real Dyneema comes from Denmark or Greenville NC and is heat set and coated with polyurethane.]

Anybody care to compare wire rope VS Dyneema in terms of replacement?
Dyneema's loss of 20% strength after two years UV exposure IS SIGNIFICANT imco.
But what has happened to 316 stainless in that time period?
Is the Dyneema (as standing rigging) signicantly easier to replace??? Does the mast have to be lowered to do it?

Have to see a tutorial on replacing stainless steel wire with Dyneema rope on an Ariel/Commander.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
Dyneema and Spectra are the same, yet not the same.
google>
PDF Spectra & Plasma Ropes Introduction Puget Sound Ropes (PSR) began...
This paper will give you the lowdown on this fantastic plastic rope.

[Tony G]

That's good stuff there, Ebb!

Well 20% is significant to me also. What about four years? I trust my ability to assemble a Norseman fitting or similar correctly. My splices? While I see them as inherently beautiful and a miraculous feat when I finally crank one out, I would not be as confident knowing my standing rigging is relying on my splices. I do like the idea of a complete standing rigging on a spool in the cockpit locker! My standing rigging was upped to 1/4" two years before I bought her and it has spent it's life indoors since then and I'll bet it has a good bit of life left in it. If it aint broken don't fix it.

I will serioulsy consider using high-tech line for tensioning the solent. Rethreading a couple of blocks every couple of years seems entirely doable for me. I mean, come on, there's only one splice to complete.

I would think replacing standing rigging could still be done one stay or shroud at a time. I just don't want to go up the mast when it's swinging and I can't afford to pay someone else to do it!

[mbd]

Hey, I wasn't at the computer!

**********

Another pic from the "ideas" folder:

Aft galley, and you could gain extra foot/storage space by making the v-berth a "shelf".