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Thread: Play in Tiller

  1. #16
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    Interesting,
    bill and I got crossed as I was editing. Sorry.

    The tiller part of the casting is a very simple shape, and would probably be relatively easy to have recast. It also would be a piece of cake to make a pattern

    I will either glue on wood 'ear' extensions to the bronze as suggested and use that as a pattern to be recast
    OR make a model out of wood and take that to the foundry. If I made it, I would also widen it to take more tiller width, it is only 1 1/4" in the 'channel' in the original. That's really not enough for a hard working piece of wood!
    Last edited by ebb; 12-10-2007 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #17
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    My tiller head pictures

    It seemed appropriate to move to this thread. Here are some pics I took today while I was down for a sail.
    My first reaction was doh, when the tiller was down all the way the slop went away (note to self, get another tiller that curves up as mentioned by others)

    But then I realized even the slightest lifting of the tiller and the slop was evident.
    Upon closer inspection it was clear the it did not stiffen up until the fork engaged the clamping not. One can look at the second picture and see where the wear is on that clamping nut.

    It seems to me that unless it was designed poorly, that it must be so worn that the fork does not rest on what appears to be a shoulder above the clamping nut.

    Can anyone point me to a picture of another tiller head so that I may better understand this?

    Thanks Tim
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    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  3. #18
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    It looks to me like you have a mismatched set there...

    Have a look at post #28 in the 'Tiller Discussion' thread: (link below) to see the tiller fitting that matches the head fitting on the tiller shaft.

    Mine matches that. (It is a 3 sided channel shape not just the two tangs... Although I have heard of other boats having only the two tangs....

    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...5&postcount=28

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rico View Post
    It looks to me like you have a mismatched set there...
    I suspected that, thanks
    Tim
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  5. #20
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    THERE"S a dang good reason to have the tiller part recast.

    It could be done using an original. That does look like the original head fitting - but not the tiller, that is a mismatch.
    There'd be some shrinkage when casting from an original piece, so it might require some machining to get that nice cozy fit the two mates have. But it can be done. Wouldn't be cheap, copper being so expensive.

    That cozy fit helps cancel out wobble in the bolt. but the advantage is soon lost lifting the tiller up while steering. A laminated tiller like MaiTai's has a more pronounced S shape keeping it higher out of the cockpit, helping to keep it down while steering and protected in that more efficient position.

    Don't know about adding 'ears' now that time has past. But if I was going to remodel it it would have wider (not thicker) metal at the bolt, maybe as wide as the channel section is now. With an S tiller that would be more good bearing on the head piece because it doesn't have to be lifted off the rudderhead as much. There are times when sitting on the coamings or making room for legs when tacking that a tiller has to be up and vulnerable.

    And instead of the tiller piece pinching in the way it does, which I'm sure was done because it looked better to someone, I would have the channel get wider so that a bigger piece of tiller could fit in there. Or at least bring the sides back the same width of the tangs at the bolt. Still have the look of the original but the redesign would make more sense.

    I would also go with a slightly lighter pattern, The sides are a massive 7mm on one side and 6.5mm on the other on the one 338 has. They'd be overkill for just tangs without the connection across the top. Keep it beefy at the hinge with slightly larger rounds at the end and taper the metal thickness in sides and the top down out over the wood. Skinny the metal down the further out on the tiller - don't need overkill out there - makes the tiller heavier than it needs be.

    After all it's a casting, you can sculpt it the way you want! Take a pouind of metal off anyway, even though it would be wider than the original. Probably knock the hardass corners off too. Echo that nice dome we got going on the rudderhead piece.

    The top of the shaft would be thankful. So would the old rudder head. Be easier to keep it tight there. Might even take some chore out of steering.
    Last edited by ebb; 05-15-2008 at 06:25 AM.

  6. #21
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    recasting tiller parts

    Ebb, Perhaps casting those parts sound intriguing to you, to me it is a bit overwhelming

    Is there alternatives?
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  7. #22
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    Hey there Tim.
    I guess all my verbiage is to hopefully get some interest going about redoing the fitting. It's a pretty conservative lot we got going around here! Must be something metal and alloys and fire and brimstone. And it probably would be better if an actual Westlawn grad would draw the better one.

    The imposing part in this is that we have deferred to the designer and engineer on the tiller/rudderhead fitting. I think that some bad compromises were made designing the one we have. And we're brainwashed into accepting it. I'll bet that Alberg had nothing to do with it. I believe that well enginnered fittings look right, have some beauty about them. That thing we got in the cockpit is heavy and clunky and ugly. This is not to say that it doesn't have some good things. The rudderhead part is pretty sophisticated - it's the tillerhead part that never was finished by Pearson.


    Awhile back I got a chromed bronze Edson tiller/rudder fitting for a backup. It's a lot prettier and sexy to look at than ours - which looks like it was recycled off Capt Nemo's Nautilus. Trouble is the keyway is in the front rather than the back.
    My attempts at making a new rudder now has two keyways on the top of the shaft 180 degrees apart. Actually that may be a good thing since keyways get screwed up a lot.


    There may be an impediment going off to the foundry with your own design, but, hell, if you had one chock or cleat of a certain pattern and you had to have two, it isn't a big deal to take it to a foundry and ask them to cast another. Or, as I saw for ten years of weekends being around a great yacht being built, you make up wood models from the yacht designer's specs - or scale up a fitting you like - or fix a design that's OK but missed it. It's a mystery, but it ain't no big mystery.

    Getting the tillerhead recast is something you'd go to the foundry and talk about. No different than going to a machine shop, or a highly skilled welder. And find out if something can or can''t be done. Just costs time and money.
    Last edited by ebb; 05-15-2008 at 08:04 AM.

  8. #23
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    Undoubtedly when I get the boat up here and apart that will be one of my options (since there are very few others )
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  9. #24
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    Historical Arts & Castings

    Before casting your own tiller fitting, get an original from:

    Historical Arts & Casting, Inc.
    5580 West Bagley Park Road
    West Jordan, UT 84088
    TEL: 801-280-2400
    FAX: 801-280-2493
    www.historicalarts.com

    They acquired the original patterns for early Pearson yachts.

    For more information check out post #25 in this thread:

    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...istorical+Arts

  10. #25
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    Thanks Bill, I had not completely forgotten, but did get misplaced in the shuffle.
    Tim
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  11. #26
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    Tim

    Just a quick note on this subject:

    Historic Arts has a lot of good stuff but they didn't get the pattern for the ariel/commander tiller castings. They have the 1.5 inch casting (for the vanguard and alberg35) they also have the 1.25 inch casting for the pearson 26 (designed for a vertical shaft))

    Folks who have the right part in production are zeke durka at ensign spars (same part as the ensign) and bristol bronze, bristol's tiller head casting is through drilled for the shaft, having seen both parts, i lean towards the ensign spars part for originality)

    Cheers
    Bill@ariel231

  12. #27
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    I think this is why I was confused reading previous threads, I am into functionality, which replacement would give me the strongest for the buck?
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  13. #28
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    Both the ensign spars and bristol bronze parts appear to be equally strong. The cross-sections and alloy choices appear similar. The failure modes for my tiller were dissimilar metals (prior owner installed an aluminum tiller in the bronze casting... Not good) and wear on the bolt holes in the tiller head casting. If you have the original and the holes a just a bit oblong, you might want to talk to a welder experienced in repairing bronze (a propeller shop can fill the holes back in and re-machine the part)

    I'm not concerned the original part is "under-sized" 40+ years of service is a lot to ask. My project this year is to replace my tiller head casting with an original pattern part. The rough casting is on the workbench awaiting a keyway and some time in the drill press.

  14. #29
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    Bill, be great to see some working fotos of how you finesse the new tillerhead casting.

    Tim D,
    My guess is CHE is still in the Bay Area. Some time ago now I had the rudder shoe cast in 655 over in Richmond at California Castings. They might still be there. They did a beautiful job using the finest sand possible, I got to see the sand box they cast it in. There wasn't much finishing that had to be done.

    If it is in business and you want to set it up, I'll meet you over there with the tillerhead. I'll bring the complete fitting.
    You would bring the rudderhead to see if they are indeed the same..
    Last edited by ebb; 05-15-2008 at 10:54 PM.

  15. #30
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    Thanks for the offer Ebb,
    Yes Che' is still at Richardson Bay marina and will be until probably end of June. That is when I am hoping to bring her up to my yard in Mendocino for work to be done.

    Do you have the tiller piece that matches my rudderhead?

    Tim
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



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