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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
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    329

    Play in Tiller

    There is play in my tiller caused by the wear in the holes where the bolt connecting fitting mounted on the tiller connects with the fitting on the head of the tiller shaft. The holes are now a little "oblong" and no amount of tightening or adding washers seems to hold for long. Recommended fixes anyone? One choice would be to drill out the hole one size larger and use a new larger through bolt. Any other suggestions?
    Last edited by Hull376; 09-17-2007 at 07:14 PM.
    Kent

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Orinda, California
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    There has been discussion on this. Try the search function using tiller, tiller head, etc.

  3. #3
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    Apr 2002
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    Bill, I found it, but see that ebb and the other bill didn't think drilling it out to 3/8" would be a good idea. Awww shucks...................
    Kent

  4. #4
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    San Rafael, CA
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    tiller bolt

    Hi Kent,
    I, ahhh, would conference with another sailor on your fitting. It seems very unlikely given the structure and weight of the tiller fitting that the bolt hole could elongate that much. I don't know of course because I haven't seen it. Not that I know anything anyway!

    The fitting I have is massive and is evidently original. The bolt fits easily thru all the (4) holes.` There is a little play in the bolt all cinched up as it is.

    What holds the bolt on is all taken up on the bolt. In other words the bolt does not need to be tight to the tiller fork. Indeed imco it should not.

    If you use a cap nut (a closed nut) on a bolt fitted carefully to the nut, you can run the nut tight - to refusal - onto the bolt just before it tightens onto the washers. The washers obviously can be used as spacers or shims.
    You want the bolt to be tight on to itself NOT onto the tiller fork. I believe this is the key to the problem. That way no up and down movement of the tiller can untighten the nut or the bolthead.

    The bolt would be snug, with washers under the hexhead and under the crown nut. The bolt would have no back and forth movement BUT would be loose enough to spin with your fingers! Add or subtract washers, tillerhead I have has three.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___

    You can redrill to 3/8" but - take a look at the bolt you have now and see how close the bolt is to the back of the tiller head piece. My fitting has maybe 1/16" between the bolt and the flat back of the head.

    There is enough meat left for redrilling if the guy drilling knows what he is doing. It's a one shot deal. It would take very careful setup so that no misalignment happens to the two pieces which must be drilled simultaneously. Whether the drillbit could get by the back of the tiller head is your call. If it is as close as mine is, you could take it first to a machineshop and have them mill out a 'relief' cove where the bolt goes by. Then your new larger holes could be drilled without the possibility of the bit being pushed off line by the back of the tillerhead.

    The bolt, as I mentioned on another thread, should be upgraded to a bolt whose shoulder goes clear thru all four holes. Threads should appear ONLY where the washer(s) and nut goes. That's pretty precise! Can be done by buying an extra long American style bolt that is threaded only part way.
    (I forget what size I had to get (6"?) - the guy at Jamestown actually left his computer to go into the warehouse to measure for me!)
    You take a die and crank it to exactly where you want the thread to be, and cut to length.

    Threading makes the diameter of a bolt smaller. A bolt that is threaded clear to the head going thru the tiller fork and thru the ears on the tillerhead is a looser bolt than specified. A solid, smooth shoulder is full diameter and may take some of the play away.
    A 3/8" bolt may not be needed.

    A nylock type lock nut might work, by giving you a little cinching leeway - to see if this works. But I would eventually put on a capnut. I would use all silicon bronze, you may have to get brass for the crown nut. Bronze bolt, 316 nut and Tefgel is ok.

    So that's the fix as I see it.
    Tighten the bolt independant of the tiller fork.
    Use a full shouldered bolt.
    This is all imco.
    Last edited by ebb; 09-20-2007 at 06:22 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Santa Cruz
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    190
    My experience has been that most of the play in the tiller on Pathfinder has been at the tiller head key way. What has helped was to place some brass shim paper in the key way of the tiller head. Some day we may spring for a new head but I think as long as we have a hard steel key inside a brass groove we are just going to have a reoccurring problem.

  6. #6
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    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
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    Thanks, ebb and Ed. Next time I'm at the boat I'll re-inspect all the moving parts to be sure that I've identified exactly what is moving around and by how much--- it could be a combination fix is needed (bolt play plus head play). Ebb, you think this stuff through, much more so than I do, and I really appreciate your ideas!
    Kent

  7. #7
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    Mar 2006
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    San Francisco - or Abroad
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    It looks to me like you have a mismatched set there...

    Have a look at post #28 in the 'Tiller Discussion' thread: (link below) to see the tiller fitting that matches the head fitting on the tiller shaft.

    Mine matches that. (It is a 3 sided channel shape not just the two tangs... Although I have heard of other boats having only the two tangs....

    http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...5&postcount=28

  8. #8
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    Jan 2008
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    Northern Calif
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rico View Post
    It looks to me like you have a mismatched set there...
    I suspected that, thanks
    Tim
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    THERE"S a dang good reason to have the tiller part recast.

    It could be done using an original. That does look like the original head fitting - but not the tiller, that is a mismatch.
    There'd be some shrinkage when casting from an original piece, so it might require some machining to get that nice cozy fit the two mates have. But it can be done. Wouldn't be cheap, copper being so expensive.

    That cozy fit helps cancel out wobble in the bolt. but the advantage is soon lost lifting the tiller up while steering. A laminated tiller like MaiTai's has a more pronounced S shape keeping it higher out of the cockpit, helping to keep it down while steering and protected in that more efficient position.

    Don't know about adding 'ears' now that time has past. But if I was going to remodel it it would have wider (not thicker) metal at the bolt, maybe as wide as the channel section is now. With an S tiller that would be more good bearing on the head piece because it doesn't have to be lifted off the rudderhead as much. There are times when sitting on the coamings or making room for legs when tacking that a tiller has to be up and vulnerable.

    And instead of the tiller piece pinching in the way it does, which I'm sure was done because it looked better to someone, I would have the channel get wider so that a bigger piece of tiller could fit in there. Or at least bring the sides back the same width of the tangs at the bolt. Still have the look of the original but the redesign would make more sense.

    I would also go with a slightly lighter pattern, The sides are a massive 7mm on one side and 6.5mm on the other on the one 338 has. They'd be overkill for just tangs without the connection across the top. Keep it beefy at the hinge with slightly larger rounds at the end and taper the metal thickness in sides and the top down out over the wood. Skinny the metal down the further out on the tiller - don't need overkill out there - makes the tiller heavier than it needs be.

    After all it's a casting, you can sculpt it the way you want! Take a pouind of metal off anyway, even though it would be wider than the original. Probably knock the hardass corners off too. Echo that nice dome we got going on the rudderhead piece.

    The top of the shaft would be thankful. So would the old rudder head. Be easier to keep it tight there. Might even take some chore out of steering.
    Last edited by ebb; 05-15-2008 at 06:25 AM.

  10. #10
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    Jan 2008
    Location
    Northern Calif
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    100

    recasting tiller parts

    Ebb, Perhaps casting those parts sound intriguing to you, to me it is a bit overwhelming

    Is there alternatives?
    1965 Ariel #331

    'MARIAH'



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Hey there Tim.
    I guess all my verbiage is to hopefully get some interest going about redoing the fitting. It's a pretty conservative lot we got going around here! Must be something metal and alloys and fire and brimstone. And it probably would be better if an actual Westlawn grad would draw the better one.

    The imposing part in this is that we have deferred to the designer and engineer on the tiller/rudderhead fitting. I think that some bad compromises were made designing the one we have. And we're brainwashed into accepting it. I'll bet that Alberg had nothing to do with it. I believe that well enginnered fittings look right, have some beauty about them. That thing we got in the cockpit is heavy and clunky and ugly. This is not to say that it doesn't have some good things. The rudderhead part is pretty sophisticated - it's the tillerhead part that never was finished by Pearson.


    Awhile back I got a chromed bronze Edson tiller/rudder fitting for a backup. It's a lot prettier and sexy to look at than ours - which looks like it was recycled off Capt Nemo's Nautilus. Trouble is the keyway is in the front rather than the back.
    My attempts at making a new rudder now has two keyways on the top of the shaft 180 degrees apart. Actually that may be a good thing since keyways get screwed up a lot.


    There may be an impediment going off to the foundry with your own design, but, hell, if you had one chock or cleat of a certain pattern and you had to have two, it isn't a big deal to take it to a foundry and ask them to cast another. Or, as I saw for ten years of weekends being around a great yacht being built, you make up wood models from the yacht designer's specs - or scale up a fitting you like - or fix a design that's OK but missed it. It's a mystery, but it ain't no big mystery.

    Getting the tillerhead recast is something you'd go to the foundry and talk about. No different than going to a machine shop, or a highly skilled welder. And find out if something can or can''t be done. Just costs time and money.
    Last edited by ebb; 05-15-2008 at 08:04 AM.

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