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Thread: Commander #65 "Lucky Dawg"

  1. #166
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
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    589
    Hey Ebb,
    Thanks a ton. Hard but gratifying work. I could be putting ALL this stuff (from the picasa link) on my Lucky Dawg page as it goes on, but I was a little concerned about dominating the board for 3 months! Maybe when it is done with, I can make a new thread and put it all on there. Hopefully there is something to be learned from someone not knowing diddly and diving in nonetheless.
    Don't know how Perfection will wear, but with NONE of this process being easy so far, painting with Perfection has been nearly blissful.
    Max is a good boy - rescue dog and he has been a great addition over this past summer. Not sure how good a sailor he'll be!

  2. #167
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,549
    If MAX cain't be a sailor
    maybe he can be a swab....
    Whot's in a name?

  3. #168
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
    Posts
    589
    re "CSI" - 3M Dry Guide Coat (<- link) is the product/applicator.

    Spray Guide Coat (<- link) or just a lacquer spray paint apparently works too, but the way the graphite rubs into the surface seemed to be it's superior utility. And I didn't have to worry about overspray to unintended surfaces. It was a godsend for surface prep.

    And thanks, I thought the balloon idea was a brief (very brief) moment of genius. It came to me at about 4AM the night before I put it into service. "Eureka!

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    Last edited by Lucky Dawg; 08-18-2011 at 06:31 AM.

  4. #169
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    Apr 2007
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    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
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    I think I mentioned intending to buff out this paint job to address minor imperfections. If I said so, I spoke out of turn. Interlux sternly warns against buffing Perfection because as the finish cures, the resin rises to the surface and is a thin protective film that also acts as the glossy finish. In short, if you buff it, you take off the shine and diminish / destroy the protective finish that the resin provides.

    Given that, I will be inspecting what I want to sand and recoat and what I can live with - there will be a little of both. Port side of the cabin, aft of the port portlight is the only problem area that I intended to fix with buffing.

    Non-skid looks great. Picasa link in the posts above is updated through non-skid application. "Paint, sprinkle, paint, sprinkle, thin paint" is the application process. I can detail further beyond that hyper-brief direction if anyone cares to hear more. Came out very even.

    Came up a quart short this weekend - and not another quart to be had within 100 miles. 5 quarts was plenty, but a couple coats I could have planned better for what to do with leftovers or choosing when to mix a partial batch. So I may have thrown away nearly a quart with various leftover quantities. Intended to be finished painting on Friday and haul her home to reinstall hardware, etc. in the driveway. So running out was frustrating. I had enough to finish the cabin top, so I could get started with reinstalling hardware there, if not all over the boat.

    With my paint miscalculation, it will be a mad dash this week to get her launched by Saturday for a Monday sail. Still the plan...
    Last edited by Lucky Dawg; 09-10-2011 at 08:06 PM.

  5. #170
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Lutherville, Maryland (near Baltimore)
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    197
    I got the same story from Interlux concerning their basic Brightside: buffing diminishes gloss and durability. When I talked to the person on the toll-free tech line I asked if they got that question often. He replied that they did. I noted that fact indicated that it might be a good idea to warn users not to buff in the product directions on the can or the product info sheet on the website. He really didn't have a response for that. Duh.

    Given that experience and the fact that I was about to apply Cetol I decided to call the number for Sikkens Cetol. Lots of other boaters I know advised me that, "putting Gloss on Cetol is a waste of time and makes work." Cetol guy on the phone found this a frustrating "rumor". He reported that quite a bit of the UV protection is in the gloss. The gloss also slows evaporation of the base color coat. They consider this a two part system that is not complete without application of the gloss. What makes it more durable than varnish from their point of view is that one part seals the wood and provides color, the other slows evaporation and reinforces sun protection. By separating the tasks they feel they get better overall performance than varnish at least in terms of durability. I replied that you'd never know that from reading the directions on the can(s). This guy was at least aware enough of good customer relations and communications to admit that this was a problem.

  6. #171
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    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Can Awlgrip or Interlux perfection be buffed?

    That's a google
    Boatdesignforums has an exchange on that.

    I can find nothing in the yachtpaints.com data sheet warning against buffing.
    However a full cure will take two weeks. More the better.
    The guys on the boatdesign form mention that.

    Another points out that the gloss micron layer on top which provides most of the coating's promised protection will be compromised if buffed, that is if you take the shine away with the buffing - as you say.

    Another guy says don't use anything under 2500 grit ! ! !

    It's understandable you want to protect the gloss.
    So why can't you wax-n-buff when it's 99% and you have to have 100? Not removing anything except the last polish and wax.

    I think that if you want to get a mirror gloss like fancy concours cars get you have to use an acrylic urethane (yachtpaint's AwlCraft) used for autos, made to be sanded and sanded, clear coated & buffed. (Awlgrip's Awlcraft data sheet specs that the system has a clear coat and the coating is buffable.)

    Color coatings have to be solid color. But maybe the top reclining molecules in the Perfection color gloss could arguably be transparent.
    A perfectionist might try to sand and recoat cured polyester layers if each had a flattening agent mixed in. Sand to perfection then lay on a last coat of color gloss.
    I see NO clear gloss in the Perfection data sheet.
    To achieve concours imco you have to clear coat!
    BUT neither of these two (single stage) linear polyester urethane coatings can be sanded and buffed in the classic sense.
    Can't say I understand a damn thing anymore the way paint chemistry seems to blend everything together. But maybe the slightly cheaper acrylic urethane is more crystalin in structure and therfor can be BUFFED?
    Kyle, the assumption here is that Perfection is a polyester urethane. Do we know this as a fact?
    If it is an acrylic urethane then perhaps it actually can be sanded and buffed like Awlcraft 2000.
    After the stuff cures for two months.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
    A 3rd FRIENDLY ALTERNATIVE:
    System Three makes a waterborne WR Linear Polyester Urethane Topcoat.
    This two stage system (there is a clear coat) presents no serious safety issues.

    According to the Description & Application Guide it looks fairly easy to build up coats
    (if you must) by putting coats on without a particular additive, and sanding,
    then finishing up with a coat with a crosslinker in it. That sort of stuff.

    Wouldn't know about comparing the gloss with the LPUs mentioned above,
    but they all seem to promise equal performance.

    Thinning WR-LPU is with water and the coating can be SANDED & BUFFED
    if you put on four coats of satin color, two of clear for gloss*, then sand and buff.
    Quote:
    "If a higher level of gloss is desired the cured coat may be sanded and buffed. Wet sand with 600grit sandpaper proceeding in stages through 1500grit. Buff with a compound equivalent to 2500grit and finish with a product similar to 3M's Finesse-It."

    .....And this is explicitly printed in the SystemThree application quide.
    Not inconveniently left for forums to discuss or making a disappointing phone call.
    (S.3 is also available for help throughout the workweek.
    The CAVEAT. WR-LPU is notoriously difficult to use anywhere south of the 48th parallel. You will require 65/70 degress and 85%humidity.
    Bateau2 - Builder Forums guys complain System 3 should have more explicit guidelines on ap temp and humidity. Some have to flood their shops !!! with water to raise humidity levels. Everyone will agree that WR-LPU is a cold weather paint.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
    * On my planet we can't put a coat of clear or color over another without sanding - wet sanding usually. That means more total coats AND more time.
    It isn't concours that drives us, it's just getting rid of the bugs, zits and dust specks to make it smooth enough for the next stage.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
    "The end stages of Boat Building Disease can make a strong man cry."
    Gary Frankel- Cockpit Confessions, Pacific Yacht Magazine (newboatbuilders.com)
    Last edited by ebb; 08-26-2011 at 10:02 AM.

  7. #172
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
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    589
    No, as Jerry points out, the application instructions say nothing about not buffing, but if you read the "finishes" forum in the interlux/yachtpaint site, the tech rep who moderates the forum says over and over what I posted above. "Buff at your peril!"

  8. #173
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Putting one system over another?

    These coatings are all urethanes.
    Once the VOCs have evaporated - there is plenty of solvent that has to dissipate (upwards of 70%) - perhaps a polyester urethane coating becomes virtually inert at that point and with a little tooth applied to the surface, maybe an acrylic urethane clear coat could be rolled or sprayed on - and that buffed?
    Solvents are the problem, as it may be difficult for them to disapate quickly through a tight, dense, hard skin.

    Urethanes are notorious for not sticking. Usually applied to a fresh epoxy primer, but not always. But the reasons for that may be more in careful prep than chemical tech.
    (For example:
    Non-clogging sandpaper containing STEARATES will leave a residue and screw up any surface epoxy and polyurethanes are applied to.
    There are often warnings about wax in tack-cloths used to clean dust off surfaces about to be painted.
    Solvents used to wipe clean a surface are often culprits in a coating's failure.
    Silicone caulk contamination of gel coat.
    Between the two packaged cans of an INTERLUX epoxy filler I bought once was a folded piece of paper that in the smallest print possible warned that the cured material had to be washed of BLUSH befor sanding!!!
    No mention of this step on either can! If I had used the product (I took it back to Svendsen's) without washing off the water soluable oil it would have contaminated the surface, gotten into every minute scratch, when I sanded.)

    Once one system's surface is neutral, arguably any paint, any enamel, any coating could then be used over it.
    Maybe - to dull the surface - prep could be warm water, BonAmi, and a green nylon pad?
    Imco it would be possible to use another system's CLEAR COAT, perhaps even the waterborne LPU, to get your 'higher level of gloss.'

    They're all obscenely expensive coatings
    and you know how big money likes to stick together!
    Last edited by ebb; 08-26-2011 at 10:57 AM.

  9. #174
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
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    ...and yadda, yadda, yadda, She's all back together

    My oh my oh my.

    This was one beast of a job. Please remind me never to do it again. I never tracked the hours - I would just quantify them as a mind-numbingly large number.
    Proud of the outcome, for sure. Feels a bit like the "lost summer" of 2011.

    Mast stepping in the AM.

    Quick notes: A couple items didn't make the must-do list such that we could get at least one sail in before Sadie starts school on Tuesday.
    Such as:
    1) skipped the rub rail. I ordered and have in my possession a nice Eagle Moulding vinyl backer for my stainless rub rail. With the time clock ticking, my choices were delay sailing to do the whole job right, just install the stainless and repatch reinstall both over the winter, or skip both now and make it a winter project. #3 wins. Will just have to be careful to keep her safe from damage.
    2) the handrails will go back on top of the cabin. An easy job at the dock if/when I have time this fall. Trimming the new bungs to fit and therefore sealing the fore and aft holes on the railings would have, again, taken another step.... time...
    3) I screwed up the traveller placement. Will detail later. I have a good idea for an easy and tasty fix though. Stay tuned.
    4) the aft legs of the pulpit are misplaced and I have to figure out how to fix that screw up.
    (For the most part, #3 and #4 are the only significant errors I've made.)
    5) skipped reapplying VC17 - a two month season can do without, but I do miss that brand new copper bottom appearance.

    I did a good job (B+, I'd say) bagging and protecting my reusable screws and bolts, etc. Some things just mysteriously disappeared. Lots of trips to the hardware store to buy stainless piecemeal. The cashier knows my name now....

    Several weeks ago, Sadie says to me "Hey Dad - um, next Spring, how 'bout we have Lucky Dawg all ready to sail so we can sail in the summer!" Thanks for that little pointer! Duly noted.

    Pictures below
    Last edited by Lucky Dawg; 09-02-2011 at 08:34 PM.

  10. #175
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    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
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  11. #176
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  12. #177
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    p.s. I've tried to estimate what this crazy job https://picasaweb.google.com/1009889...858412/Deckjob# would have cost me to hire out. I've been saying an easy 10 grand.

  13. #178
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Scarborough, Maine
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    Kyle - well done and thanks for sharing! I'm sure each sail this season will be all the sweeter with all that work behind you.

    Sometimes it seems like we have to earn the privilege to sail these boats...
    Mike
    Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)

  14. #179
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    Sep 2001
    Location
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    Thumbs up beautiful work!

    Kyle,
    Here's to 'sailing the summers' ahead!
    Keep posting, PLEASE!
    Rig up, rail down, and all around the pond.
    Thanks for sharing.

  15. #180
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    Apr 2007
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    Grand Haven / Muskegon, Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbd View Post
    Sometimes it seems like we have to earn the privilege to sail these boats...
    Thanks guys. Funny you should say that, Mike - have always given the nod to the POs for Lucky Dawg's beautifully preserved state, but I really do feel a (hard earned) sense of personal pride in the her present status. Really excited to sail on Sunday morning.
    Last edited by Lucky Dawg; 09-03-2011 at 11:13 AM.

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