Self steering systems - Wind Vanes

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

The reason Cal Alberg designed a boat for Pearson is that Pearson paid him to design a boat or them. You can improvise without drawings when you are rebuilding a boat, but to build a boat commercially you need plans. Most most builders hire professional designers to design boats for them. This is quite a different thing than writing a book about someone else's invention, when the inventor has already written a book on the same subject. I suppose it would be a little like someone signing his name on one of Phil Rhodes' yacht design blueprints, and then trying to sell those plans to Pearson.

[ebb]

From; Sven Heesterman (captain@mistervee.com)Sent Thu 8/02/12 12:30 AM

Hi Ebb,
After looking at the website's statistics I finally found a way to read
the Ariel forum. I had not realized it was open, thought I needed to login.

So I found the thread where you had posted about selecting your system.

My apologies for not getting back in touch, I am afraid I missed that
you were awaiting a reply.
It is a shame that your windpilot turned out so much heavier than you
had expected. But from everthing I read, Peter Foerthmann has a high
level of service.
And the windpilots are well built and good looking. I'm sure you will be
happy with your windpilot.

It was good to read your remarks on leading the lines through the
transom. I may have been slightly unclear about this. If I recall I
thought it was an easy option for your boat but Y&B offers the option of
both a high path and a low path for the steering lines.

I've written an explanation on this here:
http://windvaneselfsteering.com/?q=c...ounting-system

All the best
Sven Heesterman
Designer
Mister Vee/Svennovations
Arnhem, the Netherlands EU
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THUS emaileth Sven - and it clears the wind. Seems the break in communications merely was a miss.
Haven't made the attempt to compare these two windvanes. Wouldn't know how. It would be great to expose them SIDE BY SIDE.*

WINDPILOT PL
Will lend the Pacific Light for a direct VANE TO VANE reality check.
It is imco easy enough to set up ply mock ups of transoms,
or better, if someone was willing, it's much more revealing to use an actual Ariel/Commander - check out the lead for those pesky control lines.

litlgull is too radically altered from original to be useful as a test platform. She has a hump instead of a aft hatch,
and a tiller that is unlike the original. And she requires a heavy extension mounting bracket
to shift the vane a further 10" outboard to miss the tilted OB propeller.
I do not have (or know the weight of) the regular mounting flange that comes with a normal Pacific Light.
Vane is obviously better suited to an A/C with an inboard. Or a light 2-stroke in the well.

Weight on the A/C stern is a crucial consideration for cruising this small boat.
Don't know how to measure it - but adding an extra 10lbs to what must be considered a cantilever arm
exerting force of many times more than 10LBS onto the stern of an OB Ariel is not a plan and doesn't seem to be smart.
Might be quite dangerous.
And that's the concern with a 28LB machine weighing in at an unintended 47LBS. [see post #63] By tomorrow we'll have this accurate
- to the ounce.
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In fact, would consider lending this unit to any SFBayArea Ariel or Commander just to check it out.
Have to import the smaller (& lighter) mounting bracket from Germany. Peter would make it easy - pretty sure.

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*Can't find and don't recall that PRACTICAL SAILOR has done a review or comparison of windvanes.

[P.S. does the only impartial marine product testing that practical boaters have. They seem to be competent if not eccentric when comparing
products that are found in a WorstMarine catalog - and introducing innovative toys.
Their June issue 2012 has a "Marine Epoxy Comparison" that pits FOUR faniliar commerical products against each other - leaving a whole raft of other DIY brands out of the test. Many interesting and exceptional products will never see the magazine's pages.
I call this focus: SEVEN ELEVENING.
Limited choice of products to be tested is NOT impartial. Imco this has a lot more to do with how small their test bench in the shop is - and whether the glue is on the shelf at the local WM store.

[P.S. "compared epoxy resins from four different makers: West System, Epiglass, Mas, and Raka." Epiglass is Interlux.
Interlux is their flagship default brand for glue product (incl paint) comparisons.
System3 for whatever reason (S3 may have declined to be included) was not included.
Nor was my long established (been around 60 years with 20 west coast brick-&-mortars), plastics company TaylorArtPlastic's Premium Marine Epoxy. Nor any premium internet resources that often have better prices, better choices, and maybe better epoxies. viz: www.fibreglast.com www.epoxyusa.com. These products should be tested against non-marine, read less expensive, AceHardware & HomeDepot Epoxy as well, if P.S. actually have their subscriber's interests foremost.]

I'll bet my bippy that IF P.S. managed to design a procedure for testing selfsteering windvanes for small to midsized boats, they'd ignore MisterVee, or just pretend the Mr.Vane doesn't exist.. Not a fact, of course.
Year 12issue subscription is $84, currently a deal for $57. Renewing is futile.

[ebb]

(1) The articulated cast Almag35 main servopendulum unit - without attachments: 19.25lbs.
2) Coated ply wind paddle 'vane': 1.25lbs.
3)** The bag of blocks, line, chain, mounting bolts, bronze chain catch, etc.: 3.25lbs.
(MINUS the .65lb of three supplied hex wrenches.)
4) Hollow airfoil aluminum rudder: 3.50lbs.

Total without mounting flange: 27.25lbs.

5) Alternate standoff mounting (F 1) flange: 9.75lbs.
[what is the weight of standard P.L. mounting (F 0) flange, sans bolts?]
6) Line spreader bar: 2.20lbs.

Grand total weight this Pacific Light: 39.20lbs.


The vane came with a spare unpainted ply wind paddle (1.10lbs),
bolts for the mounting flange included, as well as assembly tools.
Tools, spare wind paddle, and plastic shipping bags not included in this weighing.

**3) Integral tiller fitting, light chain link, line & blocks might not all be counted in the manufacturer's aft-of-stern-rail total weight.
It is hard to know what is included or not in the Windpilot brochure weight of 28.6601lbs (13kg).
13kg minus Pacific Light's Sonoma California tally of 27.25 = 1.4101 lbs. Is this near the weight of a normal (F 0) flange bracket? Doubtful.


[Ebb, UIC
ungratedful incurable curmudgeon.]

You know, I'm not putting Pacific Light or anything down here, just trying to find out stuff.
And of course you, gentle reader, might be interested in some of this stuff.
Stuff sometimes doesn't reveal itself until you ask questions.
Asking questions about stuff can reveal how stupid you can be at times.
But I'd be many times more stupid if I didn't ask. SO, ENLIGHTEN ME, please.
Doesn't matter if I'm seen as stupid. Rather be stupid than wrong.
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*on a brand new fully charged Legal-for-Trade digital platform scale.

[Malolo]

I recommend the smaller and lighter Navik wind vane, http://www.selfsteer.com/products/navik/index.php.
Though Scanmar no longer sells them, they can be found
used at very good prices. I used one on my Triton and it
worked well.

[ebb]

Hey Malolo,
I've made a few notes of our 12 or 13 current servo pendulum contenders,
and the Navik is a strange omission. Scanmar says they stopped making it. No reason, no parts. Period.
And then there is/was Plastimo who inherited the Navik... And they dropped it.... WHY?
And no wordsmith in the marine field has found it necessary to tell us how such a fine self-steerer
was dropped TWICE by major names in the business ! ! ?
Maybe it takes the crazy energy of an inventor to keep things going.

Navik to me looks like it could have been spiffed up and modernized
with things like carbon tube, teflon impegnated bearings, and Dyneema twine.

No one on any of the forums I looked at put the Navik down,
nothing but good things said about it.
Tho I came across one who sez it's built too light. So who sez?
Somebody with a 50lb Monitor junglejim on their transom.

We can download the Navik manual from a Plastimo site.
And Sven Heesterman at MrVane is THE SOURCE FOR NAVIK PARTS.
Just saw an as new for sale on www.usedboatequipment.com/
dated Aug07-2012, Baltimore for $1250, which is imco about half price new.
30lbs, and was set up on a counter stern, perfect for an Alberg - Ariel/Commander.

navikvane YouTube
has some good video of one perched like a guillemot on the stern of a 27' AlbinVega.

Nice download diagram shows the paddle with an added trimtab, see it missing on the boat in the video.
But interesting...... what's going on there? What's a trimtab doing on an oar anyway?

[ebb]

Horizontal servo-pendulum windvanes tend to be the smallest, lightest, most efficient self-steering pilots. OK in light wind over two knots - come into their own as wind increases.
Generally cannot be used as an emergency rudder, paddles are too small and light.
(See windvane paddle as a remote trimtab to the boat's main rudder.)
Boat's rudder shaft bearing must have no slop and tiller head little play. Control lines from the unit must be a non-stretch line (Dyneema), rigged out of traffic with no chafe, thru a minimum number of light free-running blocks.
In 2012 expect to pay around $2000 for a ready to bolt on windvane. Plus or minus $500, or more - it can vary widely - with unexpected addons - and work time if you buy one in kit form - or used.
Shipping costs, taxes can substantially jack the total cost.
Imco it's well worth the extra bumph to have a vane shipped from Europe by UPS or FedEx directly to your door. They handle paperwork, customs, language difficulties, the visit to the airport, parking, & so forth.

Quest began with indentifying the lightest units first, followed by cost, ruggedness, materials, maintenance.
Focus is on vanes that might be most appropriate for a 26' Alberg sloop. Favor pilots offered by upfront individual INVentors.

Here are the suspects arranged lightest (advertised) weight first. Kg/lb.

1) MrVane (Netherlands) 7.5/16. www.mrvane.com/
2) VectaVane (UK) 9/20. http://www.vectavane.co.uk/
3) South Atlantic (Argentina) 12.5/27.5. http://www.south-atlantic.com.ar/
4) Windpilot Pacific Light (Germany) 13/28. http://windpilot.com/
5) Navik (defunct) 13.6/30.
6) Bouvaan (Netherlands) 14/31. www.hollandwindvane.com/
7) CapeHorn (Canada) 16/35. www.capehorn.com/
8) Neptune (UK) 17/37.5 www.windvane.co.uk/
9) Sailomat (California) 20.5/46 http://www.sailomat.com/
10) Monitor (California) 24/53 www.selfsteer.com/
11) Voyager (Canada) 25/55 http://vwsportleagues.ca/windvanes
12) Norvane (California) ?/? http://www.selfsteeting.com/
13) Fleming (Australia) ?/? www.flemingselfsteer.com/
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1) MrVane. Sven Heesterman inv. $2074USD + shipping $175. Extras? Carbon & frp tube, foam paddle, plastic vane.
Kit assembly, 2-3hrs. There are various upgrades & configurations.
2) VectaVane. Rusty Lea inv. $1508. Trimtab on paddle. S.S. AL castings, nylon bearings. Blade does not tilit up. Boat needs to be still to remove unit.
3) South Atlantic. S-301 orffshore kit. 4bolt mount, one bolt removal. $1618. Looks like Windpilot. Euro market. Wood/epoxy vane & paddle.
4) Windpilot. P.L. Peter Forthmann inv. (from experience) flange mount option might add significant weight. $2350 included EVERYTHING needed to sailaway. EVERYTHING included shipping the PacificLight to my front door !
5) Navik.Defunct. $100 to $1250 (per current examples) s.s and lexan. MrVane has parts for Navik he has made. Manual avalable Plastimo online.
6) Bouvaan Holland Windvane. Sm kit $1028USD, requires 60-100hrs plus welding. Ball bearings (rather than sleeves) Finished $1811, assume factory. Supply own leadmetal, blocks and line.
7) Cape Horn. Yves Gelinas inv. $3460 standard model. Usually installed with horizontal axis glassed thru transom for keel-hung rudders like Albergs. To a quadrant OR lines to tiller. Other configurations, weight? Lots of personality to website with good info.
8) Neptune $2500, accesories extra. LM25AL castings, 6063 tubes, 316 shafts, teflon impregnated bearings. Paddle, frp. Airfoil, ply.M790.
Open and revealing website.

Sailomat, Monitor, Voyager are great windvanes but imco they belong on larger boats. (Litlgull originaly came with an auxillary rudder Auto Helm ! Anything is possible.)
May have just missed the data, but presenting your windvane for public sale without disclosing weight is BS!
Fleming Global Equipe. $5000USD. Norvane Model 12 (to 26'). $1890.
Wouldn't it be fantastic to see all 13 collected together - you know, side by side, see what's what, see what really stands out......then......
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Both Scanmar(Monitor) and Windpilot sell SOS Rudders that are useless in an unplanned emergency - like when you accidently disable your boat rudder - by rotten luck - in howling winds and troubled waters. These rudders reguire expensive pre-installed flange mounts, a flat calm marina, a break for lunch, and maybe some prime time on the hard.
A real emergency rudder is one deployable when the boat is in real trouble!
BUT for the bluewater adventurer there was a credible emergency rudder IDEA floating around for awhile (may have been posted on the Pacific Cup site) that requires a cassette in the form of a long and strong open wire rod basket hinged to the transom into which you drop a foam composite blank with an airfoil shape on the part in the water. Gudgeons (or XHD T-track) are permanently prefixed on transom, the cassette/scabbard has pinions, one long bolt, or track slides as part of it, which allows the basket to be hung on the transom befor the blade goes into the water stream. The 6' long blade THEN inserts into the basket, which when fully housed reaches the proper number of feet into the water. Also extends above stern-rail for tiller or lines to steer by. Imco a great idea... with design problems to overcome... if developed and made workable could be a real emergency rudder cruisers are looking for.
Transom has to be cleared quickly & easily of anything that's in the way of swinging the extra rudder - as well as its tiller.
www.pineapplesails.com/articles/
www.pacificcup.org
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Neptune's description of servo-pendulum removal:

"Main shaft spigots into a mounting boss held in place by a 12mm capscrew
which locates into a dimple in the shaft. Loosen screw. Whole gear can be lifted off." (pure techno poetry!)

[captcraig]

Hey Ebb, Think I'm leaning towards the Cape Horn vane, any words of wisdom. The designer is quite helpful and very down to earth.

[ebb]

CapCraigsuh,
Never looked into the Galines pilot very thoroly, because A338 has an OB well and cannot have a vane mounted thru the transom.
I favor inventors over corporations, too. So the edge goes with sailor putterers....who have personalties & telephones.

[I'm not interested, however, in his mast climbing steps, which are clever - but for somebody like me, too dangerous!]

Imco the CapeHorn is too heavy to be mounted outboard on the transom of a boat as light as ours.
That's just a feeling. He may have reengineered over time and lightened it up.
Have to say, because CapeHorn was designed for a full keel Alberg 30....it has, for us, provenance.

I think Yves can be found at yearly Strictly Sail shows.
BUT I'd look seriously into the lightest windvane on the list here.
Can usually have conversations with your windvane supplier!
Inventors are marked in the list with INV.

I'm really disappointeed, because I wasn't sharp enough to ask what the special stand off mount it needed would weigh
before I purchased Pacific Light.... about 1/3 more extra weight over advertised..... unacceptable at this point in the game.
Things might have been different but for a missed communication!
I think TOTAL weight for a windvane on our 18' plus waterline - 26' - 2 1/2 ton - cruiser, should be no more than 26lbs.
A pound a foot. Modern materials can make that happen.


I'm very impressed with pbryant's "The remarkable course stability of the Pearson Ariel"
found on the Sailing and Events Forum 9/28/2012. NO WINDVANE.

I'll experiment with A338's course keeping capabilities befor I hang any wind pilot.
From pbryant's YouTube demos (two or three!), it certainly looks like it's not necessary to go that route.
.... if your boat is balanced.....and you know the boat like pbryant. (and the boat knows pbryant, too!)
Pbryant's 'bravura' adjustment tuning gesture may be required for everyone to get the same results!

Non gear assisted course keeping would make revealing discussions with other A/C sailors, coastal and offshore.

[captcraig]

Thanks Ebb for all the comments, good thoughts. On a larger boat in the 32' range with plenty of room in the stern would you be comfortable with a Capehorn?, it uses a few strings. I like the Hydrovane but it wieghs around 100LB and I've seen estimates upwards of that. For the Ariel maybe the outboard well lost to a vane is a bad idea.

[ebb]

If you have an inboard, loss of the Ariel OB well is no big deal.
In fact you'd gain a lot of (fairly dry)storage because the CapeHorn only puts a tube thru the lazerette

If I was researching windvanes for a larger boat, I would look into those
heavier pilots that also can use their paddle as an emergency rudder for the boat.
Servos give up that important safety feature for lighter weight.

I've also made fun of those vanes that use a lot of junglejim tubing on the transom.
Scanmar Monitor comes to mind. It is a servo that can have its paddle removed and an 'SOS' steering rudder
attached in place. Also have to swing a tiller off the pilot.
[Assume you can't do the change-out while hanging on by your teeth.]

But all that nice tubing may also be a way to climb back onboard when you are in a hurry.
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later EDIT
If you are still here after 70 posts, you must be seriously embarked upon the 'adventure of a lifetime', as one correspondant began his essay on the
www.pacificcup.org
web page. That site perpares Pacific Cup sailors for the race to Hawaii. It is an ABSOLUTE GOLD MINE of trustworthy (and extraordinary) information for preparing your boat and your self and crew for bluewater cruising. It is all there.

Before you get into the wind-vane/auxilary rudder situation I would read Evans Starzinger's 2500 word intro: EMERGENCY STEERING SOLUTIONS.
[pdf] Emergency Rudders - Beth and Evans www.bethandevans.com/pdf/emergencyrudder.pdf
His arguement is that before we embark on a vovage of a lifetime, we had better be sure the boat's rudder is in better shape than when it was new.
Because if it isn't, and we blunder into that zone of 99% bad luck* some of us cannot avoid, our lifetime becomes abrupt.
*imco, our chances of hitting a container, submerged log/stump, sleeping whale, or greenwater comber hitting us... increases exponentially every global warming year.
The rudder needs to be as strong as possible.
Beautifully constructed flat board rudders, that came with Ariel/Commander's, imco, cannot be relied on for voyaging. Unless all new.

[Propose an HACA 0012 or 0018 airfoil quadrilateral bronze/pvc foam/frp rudder.... with the strap gudgeon replaced with a two part cast gudgeon capable of supporting the weight of the rudder without the heel fitting.....as an upgrade.]

*In My Considerable Opinion