Self steering systems - Wind Vanes

[carl291]

ebb,
I may have provided the wrong link, maybe try: mistervee.com I haven't been there in a while but viewed the entire unit with all the info you requested except actual installation of the mounting braces. Members of his blog could receive blueprints parts and assistance if they wanted to build their own system, I was a member at the time and didn't take advantage of his offer, which I think has expired. I thought he was very open with disclosing information.
I haven't come across any info on PacificLight in my search.
I do however like the mister Vee ( I might add he makes 3 different models) because of its lightweight, the fact that the whole unit can be removed in minutes, making less prone to damage and thieves , it is the pendulum style, it's about 1/3 the price of anything I've found so far, has few custom one of parts that could be fabricated any where in the world. The unit has and is being tested in a pretty tough enviorment and Sven has found some weak points and rushed to correct them and sent out notices to customers of earlier models to correct them. When viewing, it appears to be prone to damage when compared to say the Moniter Windvane but it does seem to to be perfectly sized for the Ariel.

[ebb]

The Y&B model (Young & Beautiful?) is, I think, my choice because it is versatile in mounting options. litlgull has a OB propeller sticking out of the transom when tilted up.
It's hard to tell what's what with the Y&B because you have to work to get info and apps from UTube video.
I'll keep checking back to see what developments happen. What's gratifying is that there seems
to be a lot of activity around this wind vane.
I'll stand by most of what I said on my MrVee post.
In looking at the six or eight other windvane sites my atitude has changed.
The stainless vanes are unversally heavier and complicated and strangely kind of stuck in the past.

MrVee comes off as current. In fact the mode(s) are probably being updated as we order them. Which is a good thing. Energy is always a good thing.

Windpilot...30lbs
PacificLight....28lbs
Sailomat....48lbs
Norvane....too embarrassed to tell us
MrVee Y&B 22lbs
it's not stainless but it looks prertty tough!!!
And I believe the 22lbs includes the mounting KIT and the rudder.
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What the Y&B does not have that most stainless have is that the vane rudder can be used as a back up for the boat's in case it gets lost.

[Bill]

Has anyone researched the Cape Horne?

http://www.capehorn.com/sections/obso/Obsolete.htm

[ebb]

Hey Bill,
I happened to see a comment (second hand) by Jim Baldwin
who discounted it because it intrudes into the lazarette - the way it usually is installed
with a hole in the center of the transom.
I don't know if he actually had one on his Triton.
The Cape Horn came into this world on an A-30. It is probably best suited to boats of that displacement like nearly all of the stainless crew. Too bad there isn't an 18lb halfplastic version guananteed for one circumnavigation and able to control an Ariel dead downwind!

Lightest reported weight of the Cape Horn is 35lbs.

An important point viz A/Cs is our extra large hatch that is our rear deck.
Consideration has to be given to access to the vane from the cockpit and rigging of control lines.

Notice that MrVee Sven in videos is often tweeking his plastic fantastic self steerer from the cockpit.

Treat yourself to meeting Yves at the Strictly Sail Expo in Alamada, couple weeks away.
Lot more satisfying, imco - and cheaper - than going to the BrionToss lecture.

[ebb]

The Mr Vee requires a hole thru the back of the transom. Tried to engage Sven in a discussion toward alternative 'outside' control lines*.
No A/C, imco, would tolerate lines thru the stern locker. Especially one with an OB.
emailis abruptly ceased - might have been something aye said,
but was going for the lightest self steering available.


Now have the PACIFIC LIGHT !
Shipped UPS direct to my doorstep in a single carton for (a very fair price) by Peter from Hamborg.

There is, by contrast, a lot of videos and stuff available on the net to try to see....to hold....to visualize
what a Wind Pilot machine IS befor committing....

[* exactly what the PACLIGHT does.]


Nothing prepares you for actually opening the box and lifting out the components........

[carl291]

Mr. ebb, Sven is off on the water cruising, I guess he doesn't have access to a computer! He now makes his windvanes out of carbon fiber and fiberglass. I bought the stainless steel version ( stainless WALT) ( the last one) although I haven't received it yet. It mounts on/with stainless tubing to the the transom. I am unaware of any hole other than the mounting bolts that pass through the stern. I may be surprised when it arrives!! He gave me a weight of 28 lbs total. I'm waiting on his return so the payment and shipping can be finalized. Since it is the last of the stainless WALTS I got a bargain price of about $750 plus about $150 shipping. I'll post some pics when it arrives.

[Scott Galloway]

I have done quite a bit of researching of, testing of, and day-to-day practical use of sheet-to-tiller self steering on my Pearson Ariel, "Augustine,' hull #330. I began by studying the inventions of John Letcher, and Tony Heisel, and later adapted the developments made by John Ward and Al Gunther. Finally I made my own refinements. The system that I built on my Ariel is inexpensive, light weight, and stows below. The mainsheet-to-tiller gear will keep an Ariel on any course from close hauled to a beam reach, and my jibsheet-to-tiller gear will keep an Ariel on course from a beam reach to a very broad reach. Neither gear will handle sailing dead down wind. You'll need twin head sails or a wind vane to do that. These self-steering gears are very easy to build yourself using Dacron line, some surgical tubing, a few blocks, a small block and tackle (vang) and miscellaneous other materials. For more information on this system see my web page on the topic at http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm

[ebb]

Carl, Hope your WALT MrV is as you expect it to be!
Pacific Light advertises the same 28# weight as well.
But I had to 'custom' (an already existing) standoff bracket to be sure the vane won't conflict with the OB propeller tilted up thru the transom.
Windpilot has been mounted on every conceivable stern.
The control lines come off a bar attached to the unit at deck level that directs them more or less along the toe rails
where turning blocks are mounted that take the line to the tiller. Can't see anything wrong with that.

Been away, so finally will take the plastic wrapping off the PacLite today,
and see how the pieces fit. And what the actual weight is.
But I'm a long way from putting it on the boat.
Buying it, getting it, and paying for it (VISA) was absolutely painless.
Unless I have to compare it to what you got yours for ! ! ! Would be instructive to see actual comparisons.
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PACIFIC HEAVY
Appears to be a Pacific Light - said to be WindPilot PacificLight:
Consists of a beautifully sculpted sandcast aluminum two arm piece - nicely machined at joints and sockets - jointed in the middle - one holds the ply wind paddle, the other the aluminum rudder blade,
plus the spreader bar for the line (32lbs)
a hefty cast triangular "flange" transom mount for the arms (11lbs)
and a bag (marked PL) of line, chain, tiller fitting, blocks, bolts & sundries (4lbs) Grand total of 21.32 kgs. 47LBS AMERICAN !
Weighed on the old Sunbeam bathroom scale - so it may be a little off? ....
Could I really have all this time been reading kilogrammes as pounds?
Whot in hell do I have here?
[actual carton weight 27kg (59.5lbs) - specs that came with the vane says "weight 13kg/28lbs" - another painful %&*&*(#$@#@$ screwup!]
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Peter Foerthmann responded, a bit angry, to an email in which I stated the Sunbeam scale weights. Additional weight to Pacific Light comes from my needing a special bracket that mounts the vane further out and away from the OB propeller which in UP position protrudes from the transom. And also the added Crossbar lead for the lines from the vane to quarter blocks on aft deck lead to the tiller.
"After now 38 years of running my business, I have to confess that I never had a discussion like this!" says the inventor of the WindPilot. However, in my defence as a card-carrying squarehead, I might have been 'reminded' that these additions would cost me in weight - would add to the advertised working weight of 28#. AND just what I'd expect the total added weights might add up to.
Not having an accurate weight scale has become the impetus to order a "Legal for Trade" (good to 1/2 an ounce) scale for the estate here, one we've always needed. So no doubt I will weigh these parts and report in a later post.
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Scott,
you've been able to experiment with self steering on Augustine. So jealous!
Exactly the kind of stuff I would dearly love to be doing right NOW.
Hopefully soon we'll splash litlgull and I'll find out what's really been missing.

Scott, is it at all possible to purchase a copy of your monograph:
experimenting with ARIEL SELF STEERING?

Want to follow your process to its solution. And really have to see the step by step with FULL SIZED PHOTOS.
Imco your presentation is not something that can be downloaded from your web site......altho I have not tried to do so.
Can't see detail in the pics.
HAVE TO SEE the whole picture of what you've acomplished sized to my old eyes, and in hand, from the author.
It's PROCESS that is most interesting & instructive.

Happy to trade book price for your log on the subject. Hope you say yes!

And maybe there are others here who would enjoy a full scale hard copy......?

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

There is no monograph or hard copy. This was a web project. The labeled photos were sized for the web, so what you see is what you get. You can print the page of course. I do have the original digital photos in larger size, but they are too large to send by mail. In any case they are not labeled, so they would probably not make much sense. That is the problem with the web. To get the photo to load quickly it has to be small. Website capacity issues prevent me from storing larger photos so that an enlarged view can be obtained by clicking on an embedded photo.

I do have an abbreviated PowerPoint slide presentation on self-steering that I can e-mail to you that would allow you to view some of the photos on a screen. I use the presentation for a navigation class that I teach.

[ebb]

Scott. You have at least 50 to 60 photos there
at least half of which should be half page or larger
to get your text across.
Don't know what numbers of pages the text has
if laid out in brochure form. But in book form you would
ace the web project. A well designed book would bear no resemblance.

You really have, as I say, a unique monograph
that would find readers and users with all kinds of plastic classics.
who would want a copy..... if available in book form.
An editor might suggest setting the book up as 'voyage' of discovery.
Showing how considerations of balance and wind and materials showed you how to
psyche out the perfect self-steer system for any sailboat.

It might even be desirable if you found someone to diagram
and illustrate certain rope tricks you have there.

Make your piece into a picture book.

In my considered opinion, a direct download -
at least in what I'm able to do by hitting the print button -
in no way does justice to your ideas & presentation - the photos are just too small.
Detail is too hard to see, for the most part.

I would venture a guess that your thoughts as well
have a larger and wider audience of owners of many later boats than ours.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks Ebb,

The PowerPoint presentation referenced above takes about fifteen minutes of a two-hour class, which is one of sixteen two hours classes in the coastal navigation course. I offer the PowerPoint presentation as a counter point to the textbook discussion on autopilots. Of course you can't hook a sheet-to-tiller self-steering system of this type up to your GPS, but then again a sheet-to-tiller self-steering system of this type has no power draw on the battery.

An abstract on sheet-to-tiller self-steering systems may have some marketability, but most of the concepts and designs were the inventions of others, so there is nothing unique, with the exception of my refinements. John Letcher, Tony Heisel, John Ward and Al Gunther should get the credit for their discoveries and inventions. I adapted the systems to a Pearson Ariel, but these systems should work on any tiller-equipped long-keel sailboat and maybe other shorter-keel boats as well. Those interested in looking deeper into the theory and development of these systems might want to read the following:

1. John Letcher's book Self Steering for Sailing Craft
Available from your local independent bookstore, or from Amazon.com for about $12.50 plus shipping.

2. Tony Heisel's book A Manual of Single Handed Sailing
published by Arco Publishing Inc. New York 1981.

3. Sheet-to-Tiller Self Steering - John Ward with information and photos by Al Gunther
http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

In the end, there is nothing better to teach you how a sheet-to-tiller self steering system works than taking some lengths of Dacron line and a few feet of surgical tubing to sea with you to discover what your boat can do with them if you give her a chance.

If you install a sheet-to-tiller self-steering system on your boat, your boat will become conscious of (sensitive to) the force of the wind on its sails.

Although a boat as heavy as an Ariel might sense a slight change in its weight distribution when you fall overboard, it will in all likelihood remain on course. The sheet-to-tiller self steering system that you install on your Ariel will not make your boat conscious of (sensitive to) your presence. Indeed it does just the opposite. If you fall overboard while sailing alone with your self-steering gear engaged, your boat will sail very well without you on board. A life jacket, AND a harness, AND secure places to attach that harness, AND a reasonable way to climb back on your vessel at sea are all necessities for the single hander. Life jackets AND harnesses are necessary for all crew members when on deck even even fully crewed. They are even more important when crew members are on deck forward or aft of the cockpit. They are critical when you are sailing alone.

[ebb]

Scott.
ALL good advice. And aye can see your logic....

But for the fact, that after the first boat was invented,
many more boats were invented.

What with the likes of Tord Sunden, Rob Tucker, Phil Rhodes, Olin Stephens, Al Mason....
Why did Carl Alberg bother?

There would be only ONE book on selfsteering and cockpit layout.
Why recommend more than one if the first or the second has the subject down?

My daughter has become a NYTimes best seller of scifi fiction.
Why did she bother when there are thousands of other writers of scifi?

It took desire and focus and lots of purpose and energy to give us what you have!
Thanks for sharing your ideas and inventions with us!

[Bill]

My daughter has become a NYTimes best seller of scifi fiction.

I guess she inherited that ability . . .

[Rico]

I guess she inherited that ability . . .

Doh! - Good one Bill!

- Ebb; Many Congratulations! (That is not an easy achievement!) Let us looking for a good read in on the book's title!
(Does this mean you'll be moving-up the departure date?

[ebb]

Ok you guys, I can assure you that the shenom would agree
that of our 3.2 billion live genes there isn't one squiggle for Imagination.
How many daughters of geniuses are geniuses?
Lisa Manelli? (come on, be real). Rosalind Hicks (Agatha Christie)
The offspring is the result of her own individual sequencing
for which there is no equation or computer program.

If aye should make a claim, it is that as the incurable curmudgeon
aye never got in her way!
Even Way Back When.