Commander #5

[Commander#5]

Thanks for the reply Bill. I'll check out the stock tillers for a first-season quick-fix, then look into a custom ogee curved tiller for next spring.

Sorry for the confusing write-up - I opened my paragraph to talk about "hidden" problems, but got sidetracked on the rudder issue...which led to the tiller issue...which leads to the next issue...in which somewhere in there I should have mentioned at least one hidden problem. I know I shouldn't be so preoccupied with my writing abilities, but some of you guys are REALLY good (and entertaining!) writers. I mean it! It's not normally very easy to keep my attention and read through all the threads beginning to end, but I can go on reading until midnight and laugh my a** off half the time!

You guys are a lot of fun, and a goldmine of knowledge and experience to a tyro like me. I'm really glad I found this site (and C-005).

Best regards to all of you, and thanks again for all the great replies. Dave

[Robert Lemasters]

My Commander had sat neglected for some years when I purchased it. There were gaps between the rudder planks that alarmed me also; however, I was told that they would close when the boat was splashed. They did. I would never have believed that those gaps would close. In the yard is a negelected Pearson Vanguard with the same rudder gaps, the owner (husband of wife who owns the boat)has taken the rudder apart. I had suggested to him that the gaps would close, that was two years ago, his boat is still sitting there with the rudder in pieces. On my boat, someone, back when, rebuilt/repaired the area where the rudder attaches to the keel and did a fine job of it. Inspect this area carefully as there have been problems on a few of these boats in the past. I will be replacing the rudder bearings soon. I am also in favor of building/molding a new rudder sometime in the future for my Commander, nothing lasts forever. Rudder failure is a serious event and should be avoided at all costs.

[eric (deceased)]

I remember grinding away at rotted wood and filling in with at that time marine tex. then I used a simple 2 part compound after letting the rudder completely dry out.this was called "gluvit" at that time was inexpensive compaired to west system which was somewhat new and unknown to me.in my opinion the area of the hull that is subject to most of the turning or torquing forces is directly in front of the rudder shoe. just think of it --when you turn about you are throwing that fat-ass keel around a single turning point that is supported by a rudder post and shoe-and this has been going on for--well how old are these boats now---All the glass boats that I have seen----all keel types and sizes---seem to have an inexplicable amount of gel coat crazing in this area.and it may not be just surface crazing.especially on a large unbalanced rudder.even household doors act the same way---when people break in to houses----its usually the hinged area that gives way first.

[Commander#5]

More on the rudder: The rest of the below waterline hull looks like it was painted at the same time as the rudder, but since the rudder is wood as opposed to the rest, all the paint had nearly completely flaked off. It looked like an easy job (in the welcoming shade of the hull) to just help the last of the paint off with a scraper blade. Next I stripped the mottled finish off and sanded down to bare wood. Everything was going great until a small strap (approx 4" long) popped right out of it's recessed pocket! Examining the depression, it was clear that the strap had been held in place by 4 screws or rods which joined it to it's other place directly on the opposite side of the rudder. Looking at the other side, there were likewise no screw or rivet heads atop the strap on that side either. What the..? The other plate was easily popped out summarily.

So tell me boys, do your rudders also have this strap? How should I fix/replace/refasten the straps? And how exactly is the outside (rudder tail) plank attached to the adjoining inner plank? It appears there are pins or dowels which can be seen in the gaps, but then why is the innermost plank attached to the second with the strap? Were the straps a later addition made by the owner? I really need to get some images up to show you what I am referring to.

Finally, what is the best way to refinish the wood rudder now that I have it down to bare wood, which is in remarkably good shape (no rot found)? I have never used the "West System", but is that the proper way to deal with these wood rudders, then paint as usual with bottom paint (primer and topcoat)?

Also curious...Were there any "factory standard" color schemes/combinations for the hull/boot/bottom painting? Any which would especially match the vintage/production period? I know that may sound like a stupid or trivial question, but my tastes in colors/combinations have changed over the years, and so to avoid a lot of expensive and time-eating experimentation, I'd just like to go with a "traditional" or factory "correct" restoration scheme and be done with it.

I don't mean to be nitpicky at all, on the contrary, I'm really just trying to be practical for once. The less time I spend on this stuff (cosmetics), the more time I will have later on to deal with the REAL problems...like my rotten foredecks. I'll be working on them later...right now I am blissfully working away on the finish and brightwork, all the while in total denial of that daunting and inevidible project (the dreaded re-core), and many others as bad or worse I should suspect. With your help, I'll get through these too.

Thanks to all. C-005

[Bill]

There is a very helpful discussion beginning on page 45 in the manual. It deals with removing the rudder from the shaft. The rudder stock drawing on page 170 is also informative as it includes the rudder and locates all the fasteners.

[Commander#5]

Thanks Bill, I am very interested in getting The Manual. How and where to buy? How much is it?

[ebb]

Commander,
would ream those holes out back to clean green polyester. And fill them with solid epoxy, cabosil and chopped strand. Would then reestablish the recess for the strap/gudgeon and have ready a new one.

You won't be tempted to leave it off because the strap keeps the rudder in place over its seat in the heel fitting. If it goes thru the rudder around the rudder post you need a bendy piece of strap because you have to be able to bend it out of the way if/when you drop your rudder. Would do it with bronze machine bolts, leaving the nuts exposed so you know next time which side to loosen. Bronze nylocs would be nice. S.S. nuts would be ok if you keep your eye on them.

Imco, if your rudder is indeed back to bare wood (and relatively dry), and considering the age of the mahogany, you might consider dousing the rudder with CPES. Many coats. wet on wet. Might think of this as adding back a little life to the wood-fibers. Befor you let the last one set completely*, vigorously scrub with terry towels and solvent back to the wood so it can be immediately primed with an epoxy primer (rated for underwater.) The planks will still be able to move. but now your paint will stick better. Don't cover the rudder with any glass - that is another kettle of fish or can of worms, as the case may be.

Use a magnifying glass to inspect all the metal you can see holding the rudder together. Look hard at that famous spot on the post that lives inside the tube at waterline. Have seen plank rudders on our vintage boats that have extra straps that span the blade planks. But I think they are add-ons because the rudder wood should be able to expand and contract. It's conceivable that a real tight bolted rudder could expand in the water and put a nice curve in the blade - especially our rather thin blades.

A source for ductile copper strip is McMaster Carr.

Just my O pinion. Have fun!

*you want to let some of the first coats you put on soak in and set comletely.

[Bill]

Thanks Bill, I am very interested in getting The Manual. How and where to buy? How much is it?

The information is under the link on the Association home page, "Second Edition Owners Manual."

[Commander#5]

Hello friends,
Well, I've been silent for a few months, but for a good reason - I've been busy at the boat. Presently I am still working on the interior. True to form, I agonized over the paint colors and layout, and ended up doing my same old signature trial-and-error-takes-4-coats-and-then-some method of coming up with a suitable scheme that was aesthetically pleasing to the eye.

I swore to myself when I started this project that I was NOT going to waste my time and money by OVER thinking and second guessing my every move, but alas, a leopard cannot change his spots. Anyway, the interior is now wrapping up very nicely. I have painted every square inch of it, and also have a few coats of varnish on all the teak after much needed sanding and resealing.
Seems like every floor and settee hatch's sills have popped loose and not one can be trusted to walk or sit on without falling in. I have purposely left all repairs until after I had at least one coat of paint on everything just so I would make myself be more careful when going about the repairs at the risk of messing up two projects at a time. On my first boat, I had to learn the hard lesson that decently finished is for the most part better than "perfect".

I have, however, resigned myself to the fact that I won't be going sailing this year, so my plan now is to take the winter to order and replace the long lead-time items. These include new couchins for the interior, a new custom made tiller, refurbishing the sails (being sent to Sail Care up in PA for thorough reconditioning), and of course the usual new lexans for the portlights (all four are shot).

The boat came with a full size cover, and I will wrap her up tightly in late November I suppose. I hope to have the interior done completely so that I can start to work on the exterior hull next spring. I was originally going to have it professionally sprayed, but I have since seen a few very nice brush jobs using two-part poly. Any recommendations? As always, much thanks to you all for all your inspiration and help. Keep posting your pictures - I really love seeing your success stories! - Dave F

[Commander#5]

Hello again. I've managed to make it over to the boat several evenings this week. The painting on the interior is going very well now. After some experimentation, I've come up with a scheme that looks great and really highlights the curves. For the coachroof ceilings, I am using Interlux single-part poly Brightside Off White, flattened out 3-to-1 with Brightside Flattener. The reason I opted for a flat finish is because the many imperfections of the glasswork stick out like sore thumbs after my first finish coat with the straight-out-of-the-can gloss. The flat white is still plenty reflective and that is de rigeur for such a small cabin. For the topsides between the ceilings and the longitudinal shelves, I've used a contrasting Brightside Grand Banks Beige. Using both brush and roller, it is amazing what a great satin effect can be had with even my meagre painting skills and these otherwise unforgiving and messy paints. Below the shelves and for the settee horizontals, back to Off White. The forepeak lockers, chain locker, sole flanks, settee verticals, the two cabin bulkheads, cockpit lockers and bilges, were all finished in the flat Grand Banks Beige. For the formica faux-wood surfaces, I took the advice of a few of you and scuffed them up real good and painted them all. Finally, the fold-down table top and the small galley top, I used an unflattened Gloss White. When I reinstall the newly varnished teak, its all going to look great. I can't wait and I really enjoy taking my time and doing a nice job. I can't think of anything else I would rather do - except go sailing! I'll get some pics up soon.

[Commander#5]

HI, Another weekend gone, another few coats of paint on the interior. She's looking fine. As usual, (whenever you get into your work in a marina) I had a stranger stop to admire my little Commander and ask what I was doing. This time though, he was a true admirer of our little boats, and he said he had a 35' wooden Shields sloop. He gave me a few tips, one of which was to eighty-six the rotted original built-up wood winch pedestals and replace them with some bronze pedestals from Spartan or the like. I rather think that is a good idea, and I notice from some of you-all's pics that pearson went to this arrangement not long after '64 when #5 was built. Any chance anyone knows anybody with a set of those later original metal pedestals from a Commander or Ariel for sale? Please let me know!

The other good tip was that after he saw my interior painted in the Grand Banks Beige, we were talking about the old traditional colors we both liked. When I told him that I had a fondness for Buff colors but was unable to find exactly the right tint, he referred me to Kriby Paints; a small New England company that makes marine paints and has a great Buff color. Anyone heard of these guys or bought from them?

One last question...the metal nose chainplate/tang for the forestay on my boat is badly pitted and could use re-chroming. Is this worthwhile, or am I opening up a can of worms unstepping the mast and having the peice redone? Chances are the rig needs an overhaul too (or at least a good inspection). What kind of problems do we typically have with the rig that I should be aware of? Thanks for your help guys. David on C-005.

[Bill]

David, Please post some photos. This is the "Gallery" forum, not the "Technical" forum

[ebb]

David, Try 'Search' top of page here.
Kirby Paint was mentioned by Rester and Goodwin back in March of '05 but nothing substancial. It is a small privately owned company that makes traditional paint that people like, which is reason enough to try them out.

Don't know that 'pitting' is solved by rechroming. To my limited knowledge the stem fitting can wear badly, the holes elongate, but you don't hear of the bronze. corroding. Bristol Bronze will cast you a new one if necessary.

There's a new outfit doing repros that Bill mentioned here but I cannot bring them up with the Search button. And I'm unsure they make stem fittings. See you over on the tech page.

[Bill]

There's a new outfit doing repros that Bill mentioned here but I cannot bring them up with the Search button. And I'm unsure they make stem fittings. See you over on the tech page.

No, they don't make that hardware. Prue Foundry in MA was the place (once upon a time . . .).

The "new outfit" is Historical Arts and Castings. They are producing the hardware that Rostand made for Pearson. In fact, they are using the Rostand name in their advertisments. See the thread "Original Pearson Hardware:"

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...ead.php?t=1269

[commanderpete]

Keep plugging away there Dave.

Don't think its worthwhile to mess with the stem head fitting. Check if the holes are elongated, as ebb mentioned.

I wouldn't pull the mast either, unless you plan to change the rigging or add lights, etc. Might want to have somebody haul you up to check the spreader brackets for cracks.

Winch bases. Some Commanders had no winches/bases at all. Most had molded fiberglass bases. Page 108 of the Manual shows a drawing with wooden bases. Maybe only the early Commanders had them. Don't think I've seen pictures of any.