New Generation Anchor

[craigsmith]

And perhaps a third generation anchor that at first looks like most of the others but may almost be a breakthru design.
Ultra (a new Turk on the scene that describes itself as MIXED)

That's just a knock-off of the Spade...!

[ebb]

Craigsmith,
What you say is meant to obscure rather than enlighten.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
As the son of the inventor and saleman of a commercial product,
what you say about a rival anchor is hardly impartial and
totally prejudiced. Therefor you can't be taken seriously when you attempt to put it down.

I can tell from your remark you have never seen the Ultra, or examined it.
You might learn something. If you are able to be objective.

Dare you to critique the actual anchor.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
The Rocna is a "knockoff" of a Spade with a hoop added. So what?

[c_amos]

Rose, Peter and I rode out Hurricane Noel last night. The 25# Manson Supreme stayed put, no small feat considering that the bulk of it passed just to our East, with the radio saying that the winds were sustained 80 mph.

The 'rest of the story' is here.

The Manson was on 55' of 5/16ht in 6' of water. I put the Fortress FX-16 out as a second (in a differnt direction, only got the job at the end twords morning). I put this on the 50' of 1/4"ht I bought on the way down the coast. The problem came in when I tried to rig it.

What the heck do you secure 1/4" ht with????? I had a pair of 1/4" shackles (rated at like 500# wll) and several larger shackles that I had planned to use. I guess I it is obvious but nothging larger then the 1/4" would fit. Then only onto the end link.

I ended up putting a 3/8" shackle on the anchor, and running the chain through it, tieing a knot, and then bolting the chain back to it's self with 1/4" bolts (x3).

The other end I had to attach to the primary chain, I TIED the chain on with a couple of rolling hitches, and then used the (feeble) 1/4" shackle to the end and had to use another to attach it to the 5/16" ht.

I had picked up the 1/4"ht intending to replace the HEAVY 5/16" with it. I can not see any way to attach this chain to anything that does not look Rube G.

What am I missing?

[Tim Mertinooke]

Glad to hear you made it through everything ok, it must have been stressful. That's pretty impressive that you held with 80mph winds without dragging. I think a key component that makes a HUGE difference in how an anchor performs is the chain. You are smart to have 50 feet of chain. It will dramatically improve the performance of any anchor. After my little anchor snafu where I had little, we put 50' of 5/16 on A-24. I'm convinced my actual anchor had very little stress throughout summer after that. My chain was usually straight down most of the time and I would ride around it like a mooring if the current shifted or if the winds were opposite the current. I'm sold after making the jump to that much chain. we are going all chain (200') for our new boat next summer. You pretty much make a mooring with that much chain, although getting it all back up might be a little bit of a chore, but we are looking at manual windlasses. It's Stress free anchoring in my mind with all chain, plus you eliminate chafing. When we went to the Ilses of Shoals last August in 50mph winds, Gosport Harbor was a trap with large swells and chop. We grabbed a mooring and rafted up with my parents. Once everything was secured and the boats were happy, I went out in the tender and set my 35# bruce with all of my chain in case the unknown mooring were to break. I have a friend who has done some extensive cruising in a Catalina 27 and he uses a sentinel to avoid carrying around the excess weight of the chain and he speaks highly of the setup.

[ebb]

Craig,
You ALL survived and THAT's fantastic.
I do know that when we read the cruiser forums someone is always saying that when you order your chain have the factory put (weld) oversize links on BOTH ends!
Now we know why....

So that is a great question: what do normal sailors have to attach chain to an equally rated anchor shackle? It cannot be the weak point in the anchoring system. Your double wrap seems to have worked!!!

It must be worth finding out if they'll custom shorter lengths of chain at Acco, weld on the oversize links and galvanize it for you.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
After going with a new design anchor, it has to be a great feeling that a TWENTYFIVE pounder holds an Ariel in a hurricane. What kind of bottom was it? Did the boat veer, that is, did the anchor turn in its buried position when the wind shifted? What Windline did you get for it, how do they like each other" Do you use the roller to anchor or transfer to a chock on the rail?
To 'Fair Winds and Following Seas' we should add 'Great Holding Bottoms'!

[c_amos]

Been hearing rumors that Rocna has moved it's mfg to China. Yes, Chinese Rocna's.....

Fellow at CF just verified it. GMac is a well known ground tackle retailer in NZ (?) He posts at CF and SSCA. Here is a link to the skinny.

[ebb]

THIS SHOULD BE A CONTINUATION OF THE "NEW GENERATION ANCHOR" thread.


Manson Supreme seems to have caught on. A lot of cruisers on the net talk about them and carry them. Some say the MS has become their primary anchor.
That Mocna bested them in the last big WM/Sail/YachtingMonthly mag test might be due to the luck of the roll.
OR, as I surmised and wrote to Manson about it might be due to the rollbar gussets that secure the rollbar to the blade on the bottom acting like a brake.

Both anchor makers twaddle about how these gussets help tilt the anchor into the bottom but there isn't a shred of actual evidence that this is the case.
I think that in hard sand the gussets and the rollbar ends may prevent the blade from taking a deep set. A computer model might be designed to explore this.
I think the Manson Supreme would benefit in deep setting if it had a smooth bottom (aside from the welded reinforcement of the spearpoint) - so that once set it would keep cutting cleanly into the bottom.
If Manson upset the gussets and put them on top then Mocna couldn't compare themselves to the better anchor as they constantly do.


[Practical Sailor reported on heavyweight Manson/Mocna galvanized anchor testing on a Chilean beach in their November08 issue. There were two Mansons: one the Supreme and the other a Ray which is a welded copy of the original cast Bruce, no longer made. In this report the stainless steel Ray with its three points catches the slope better to penetrate the stoney covered hard sand beach. But that is what it is. The anchors are pulled by winch from a boat. Something wrong here. Reminds me of the first PS sandy beach tests that pulled anchors with an SUV from a parking lot.*

IT IS PLAIN TO SEE that the strangely unimportant little gusset feet on both the Mocna and Supreme had no effect on getting them to START a set on the DOWN SLOPE when hauled by the boat winch. The close-up photos from behind show how similar the back ends of the two anchors are. Couple of robot turtles.
What this test is supposed to decide is beyond comprehension. The Ray was more prone to dig in while being dragged because it would flop over and penetrate one of its three points. Actually it IS the star of the 'test' because of this point - but mostly because it was shinier and more bling.
The beach test proves NOTHING relative to a 35' and under cruiser anchoring in 35' of water.
Practical Sailor should be banned from "testing anchors."]

In water with scope out, it's pretty obvious that a 125# Manson Supreme will set quicker than a 25#.

I feel we small boats have different issues. We can't depend on anchor weight to gain a decent set. We don't usually anchor on dry stoney beaches.
We have to ask more versatility of a new-age anchor because we cannot carry a whole range of anchors to match all bottoms.

I hope somebody is keeping score on what bottoms the Manson Supreme has difficulty with.

Some cruisers are upset by the long shackle slider of the MS and think it weakens the shank. Never proven, never an issue. Even in coral (shouldn't be anchoring here) where an anchor can get lodged it seems stupid to rig a shackle to the slider. The anchor does need a hole for a shackle in the center of the rear of the blade OR a loop low down on the back of the shank for a traditional trip line. Should have either one to be right. The slide is at best whimsical, can't imagine a cruiser ever using it, and there are no videos that show it actually working. It may turn out that he MS could be improved with its cylinder section blade cut with a curve to its rear for a little more surface area.

The MS will be Little Gull's main anchor as we learn more about it.


At this moment (01/09) Azure Marine sells the 25# galv MS for $248 (S&H xtra)
WestMarine sells the Mocna 25# for "Only $799" **
[WM - galv MS 25# "Only $299.99"]. Under $300!
__________________________________________________ _____________
** not once in advertising these anchors does WM mention that these anchors are galvanised. They say only 'steel'. Not stainless steel - which a 25# anchor for $799 certainly ought to be.

[commanderpete]

Does the Manson Supreme fit through the cockpit locker hatch?

Here is another anchor that's starting to get some buzz---the Raya from Brazil

http://www.ancoralatina.com/acolhime...me%20page.html

[Commander 147]

I have found this anchor (it is called a Hydro-Bubble) works significantly better than any other anchor I have ever used. It has been for some time my primary anchor. Unfortunately the company went out of business about a year ago. I spoke to the owner and the anchors were made here in the USA and he could not compete with similar style anchors on price. At the time stainless prices were going through the roof. The white bubble on top is a float that makes the anchor land in the correct orientation every time. After 3 years of using this anchor I have only once had it not set the first time. If you see one for sale used it is worth a try IMHO.

[c_amos]

Does the Manson Supreme fit through the cockpit locker hatch?

Yup.

I kept mine there for several months before I had completed my bow roller installation.

[ebb]

C'Pete,
The 25# MS is 14" wide, 25" long and about 12.5" tall (that is: measuring the anchor sitting at rest on its blade from the point to the top of the shank above it) - if you were going to put it in a box. Proportionately short and stubby (compared to a CQR) and some have complained that it is too willing a self launcher as it must be tamed immediately when on board in the roller with a chain hook.
Don't know what roller is best for the bow for the MS. I suspect it is one that has the roller below the channel. The MS shank is straight once it makes its turn off the blade. The RAYA mentioned below has a radiused shank and may not house well in the usual Windline/Kingston channel-rollers.

By and large new age single fluke anchors are handsome. And mean looking. right?
I like the MS for its clean curves, the blade especially and the sweep of its shank. I think it compliments the rounded forms of the Ariel/Commander - almost as if Alberg had a hand in the hook's design.

C'willbe, The Hydro Bubble got good reviews in the WM/Sail mag trials. But in the 2001 Practical PowerBoat trials it never set. I think it has too gimmicky a look for buyers. "Plastic ON the anchor, NO way!" While keeping the anchor in the correct attitude for setting some thought it took away from anchor weight.

I like the idea that an anchor can deep set if necessary. I would think the float on the Hydro would work against that. imco.
The hoops on the back of the MS and Mocna might PREVENT deep setting.
DEEP SET, imco, is when the anchor becomes completely buried - stays in the bottom when the pull changes 90 or 180 dgrees. If an anchor doesn't bury then it must immediately reset when pulled out.

Also as time goes on we'll see two definite camps emerge on what a newage anchor should look like. One likes the single blade to be humped up or convex or plow - the other likes 'em to be concave, scoop or spoon shaped. One of the Herreshoffs said of the CQR when he saw it that it belonged behind a horse not off the bow of a boat. He saw immediately that it couldn't set properly. What's in a name?
One rube on the SSCA forum has taken Manson to task for selling CQR copies to unsuspecting southern hemisphere yachtsmen.

I'm in the scoop camp with a high prejudice against spoon anchors - until proven otherwise. But I also feel that the new age anchors are still in their developmental stage.


The RAYA anchors are interesting. (One interesting thing is that it looks at lot like the French Spade's SWORD anchor.) The designer has copied the rounded back of the blade I would guess is meant to help roll it into dive position. Rather than adding a hoop. In loose mud all the anchors here will have problems getting orientated in the right attitude (except maybe the HydroBubble). The RAYA looks like it could have the same problem. The blade shape appeals to me - it is said to be based on a cone rather than a cylinder that the MS has. It does look like it wants to be pulled into the bottom. It maybe be difficult for RAYA to penetrate weed. Need more tests, videos, etc.
According to RAYA litereature the loop in the back of the shaft is not for a trip line but to act as a step to get aboard your yacht when the RAYA is housed on its roller.
Holding resistance is based on blade surface area. Along with a bunch of other factors of course. Blade shape, shank strength, balance, weight, how it behaves in divers bottoms, reset after direction of pull change and more.


While comparison testing seems flawed to me,
the more we have of it the better.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
PS: And it's useful to know that 100# Supremos and 100# Mocnas won't dig in on a dry downsloped hard sand beach covered with ball bearings, yes it is.

[ebb]

Bent Manson Supreme - Cruisers & Sailing forums [google]
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forum/f...2270.html-100k
(address as it appears)

Four pages of recent posts revolving mostly around the MS and Mocna.

Very interesting: the series unfolds with many posts, including our own svFaith, discussing the sorry looking bent Supreme off a rental boat,
and ends with a marvelous O'Henry twist.
You gotta follow this story-like thread to the end.


Turns out:
Mocna, the business, has been sold.
The new owner it seems is having Mocnas made in China.
That means, if we can believe anything we read on the net,
that means that Mocna Craig will probably no longer be visiting our forums.

So there goes ALL the hype of superior materials, superior manufacturing specs, superior manufacturing and superior design. There goes Craig's whacky reverse sales psychology of comparing his dad's not quite so holy anchor to a major anchor manufacturer's own samilar but very different design (Manson Supreme.)

I've made my last visit to Mocna's flawed internet site,
if just to see if they had substantiated their claims more honestly.
The video on the Mocna site was pivotal in my going with the Manson Supreme!
[Shoot yerself in the foot sales psychology]
The site is unchanged.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________


In the above thread one cruiser asks
how would you sleep if you knew your anchor was made in China?

IMCO

[ebb]

My MS 25 would look just right with a 1/2" shackle. Can slip the bow ends thru the shackle slot.
A 1/2" shackle's pin is more than 5/8s of an inch. That's comforting. But no way can I slip that pin into a 1/4" chain link.
I'd be happy with a 1/2" shackle on the end of an anchor that will hold at least two tons of pull before breaking out - and sometimes more.


Figure the chain should match that. Close anyway.
1/4" ProofCoil/P30 rates at 1300lbs Working Load Limit.
1/4" High Test/P43 rates at 2600lbs WLL....................
1/4" Transport/P70 rates at 3150 WLL. ....getting up there.
(BUT WLL for galv transport is 2677.5 at 15% loss rate. )
Weight per 100 feet is 65# each grade.

1/4" S.S. welded chain WLL is 1570#. Not made in the USA.
That's about it for chain grades readily available except for BBB.
BBB has same specs but slightly shorter links. Lengths probably weigh a bit more than standard link.

For a cruising Ariel an all chain rode would probably be prudent.
I can see 300' as a minimum for a single length. That's 195# plus connectors.
A 30' leader is 19.5#. Around 225# min.

Same in 5/16" = 285# or 315# total. Transport in this size is even heavier BUT the WL in ungalvanized link is 4700#.
Galvanizing G70 costs about 15% in WL strength
bringing 5/16" down to 4000# WLL and G70 1/4" galv to 2677.5 WLL.

I'm not willing to carry 5/16" chain's extra 100# up in the bow. Big boat cruisers like big link galvanized G70. You gotta admit that High Test compares very well.
[One important thing here. G70 transport is heat treated link. This heat treated chain is compromised each time you galvanize - including the first time. Transport chain for truckers is sold plain black. When you go with galvanized transport G70 you probably won't choose to regalvanize later on. It already has lost 10 to 20% of its original tensile strength. The right word for this type of chain is HIGH TENSILE. High tensile steel cannot be reheated as with galvanizing without loss of strength. It seems no problem with G30 or G43 High Test to be regalvanized. A knowlegable galvanizer could reharden G70 chain but they either don't exist or the process for the owner is too expensive - and/or would you trust them?]

Working Load Limit is calculated to be about one quarter of Breaking Strength. Therefor X4 the WLLs above for that figure.



SHACKLES ON STEROIDS
The galvanized Crosby alloy 1/2" shackle I mentioned above has a WL Limit of 3.3Tons!!!
It's probably also high tensile steel.
Regular shackles don't cut the mustard in this league.
CROSBY ALLOY shackles rate twice the WL of ordinary ones - which Crosby also makes.
A regular 3/8" shackle WLL is 2000#, 1Ton. A 3/8" ALLOY shackle rates at 2Tons - 4000# WLL. Pretty amazing. Its pin WILL go thru the 1/4" chain link (of all 3 grades.) BUT it looks mighty teensey on the end of my 25MS. Could say it matches the chain on looks. BUT not the anchor. The 3/8" size looks ridiculous to me, no matter how 'rated'.

You can buy 1/4" galvanized transport chain from WM for about $4.50 a foot.
WM can't call it G70 - because it isn't... once its been galvanized! And you have no option for a larger welded link for a larger shackle for your honkin Supremo. Next shackle size up: the 7/16" shackle pin is just a couple mm too large to pass thru the link. That shackle is rated at 2.5 tons WL. So we're stuck with the teensey 3/8s.
But it looks like the 3/8" ALLOY will be adequate for the job.


And there are no other connectors for chain to anchor that rate anywhere near the breakout numbers of the Supreme and the WLL of High Test. The anchor shackle is usually the weakest link. Others choices are half or less the chain or totally unrated galv swivels, lap links and split links, all suspect.
Swivels sometimes have a mix of metals.

Rated forged alloy shackles have embossed around their bow:
the Working Load Limit,
the maker's name (in this case Crosby),
the size in a fraction: 3/8. 7/16. 1/2,
the capital letter 'A',
and the number 51 with the letter I or C.
The reverse side of the shackle says USA.
These all have that screw pin with the huge eye and large hole a marlinspike can fit into that can be easily wired but often is a problem passing through anchor rollers.
The alloy pins should also have ID numbers and stamped letters. They are matched to the alloy shackle - can't change them out with other shackles.
Every shackle should have embossed WLL on the bow.

Any unmarked galvanized shackle should be in your next garage sale.
Never use made in China shackles for anything. Except garage sales.

Hope this is helpful - imco, as always.

[ebb]

If you have a 35# MS, the correct chain for that is probably 5/16".
For general anchoring by a 26' 5250# A/C we agree that a 25# MS is good.
Certainly for the weight issue 1/4" chain is probably most likely heavy and strong enough.

Galvanized Transport chain for anchoring has its detractors. Some feel it is too brittle and can snap under load. Also some say that hot zinc does not amalgamate well with high tensile steel. I have seen no proof or photos. Stainless steel link has similar prejudice: its WLL for 1/4" is 2000# - but sometimes as low as 1570# WLL - significantly lower than High Test at 2600# WLL*. See in January SAIL mag a photo of s.s. links that have gone through a storm that have separated at the weld. No provenance on who made the chain or when.
It is said of the lower two grades of chain, G30 and G43, that they will show wear and rust before they will break.

You see 10%, 15%, 20% used to figure WLL loss to high tensile G70 transport chain when it is galvanized. G70 1/4" link has a WLL of 3150# befor galvanizing, the resulting WLL after galv. is 2835, 2677.5, 2520. It is said that each time transport is galvanized the %loss continues. You choose the percentage!

The WLL for 1/4" G43 (also P43) 'High Test' is listed as 2600#

Of the three (Proof Coil P30 - High Test P43 - Transport P70)
High Test looks like the right choice, doesn't it? It can be regalvanized without penalty.
It isn't finicky, don't have to remember that it's different from all your other chain pieces, probably won't break a link, it's just..... the better regular chain.


Whatever the choice, if we go with a larger link for a larger shackle, here's what the specs say:
Inside width of 1/4# link ranges from .48 to .41 - whatever grade.
The largest size link that will fit is 3/8" link at .392".
Its inside width is .551".
A 2500# WLL regular 7/16" shackle or a 5240# WLL 7/16" Alloy shackle has a .5" pin - and supposedly will pass through a 3/8" galv link.
[My preferred 1/2" shackle has a pin that is at least .625". The only way to use that is to add another even larger link to the 3/8" link. Conceivably a 1/2" link which will pass a 5/8" pin - it's the next size up and the only choice. Don't know about that.]

Anyway it does seem that if you order your 1/4" chain with 3/8" end link you can easily match WLLs.
It has been pointed out that having a large link at both ends will allow you to reverse the chain.
imco
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
*BUT to go with 316 stainless steel chain there is a bunch of pretty and innovative s.s. chain-to-anchor connectors like hammerlocks, toggles and swivels - which you shouldn't use with a galvanized chain and anchor.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
ACCO chain is the most available and is sold by every marine catalog I'm aware of. Peerless Industrial Group (PEERLESS CHAIN) acquired Acco in 2006.
They had already acquired a chain importer WEISSENFELS USA in 2004. Weissenfels is a well known German marine chain manufacturer.. The specs for chain have some variances. I have used the Peerless Charts. You can find an informative site for W. on the net with lots of info on chain.

This may be interesting:
Here's are a few sentences on Hot Dipped Galvanizing that I hadn't heard. You can find the entire page on the WEISSENFELS USA INC. net site.
"When zinc is coupled to steel, the steel is polarized to such a potential that it becomes the cathode of the steel-zinc couple and is immune to further corrosion for the life of the zinc. In practice this means that STEEL EXPOSED AT A COATING DEFECT OR CUT EDGE WILL NOT RUST until the nearby zinc is consumed.
The finished product consists of 4 layers: the outer is free zinc, and the 3 inner layers are separate intermetallic layers that are METALLURGICALLY bonded to each other and the steel. The zinc is INTEGRAL with the steel and there is no real line of demarcation between iron and zinc, but a gradual transition through the series...."

[c_amos]

Ebb,

As usual, excellent analysis. Just to break it down for any who missed it;

it does seem that if you order your 1/4" chain with 3/8" end link you can easily match the WLLs

IMHO

Without the oversized link, 1/4" chain of any variety is pretty much useless accept as a border around your petunias. There is no known shackle that will fasten 1/4" chain to anything that needs chain.