New Generation Anchor

[ebb]

Hey Craig,
thanks,

That's right,
EXCEPT for that little Crosby ALLOY 3/8" shackle.*
At least the specs say you can make the connection from your 1/4" anchor chain to the petunia bed
without creating a weak link. And without an oversize link.
Mean to say that the 3/8" shackle pin does pass thru 1/4" galv link.
Have to trust Crosby that the WLL is what is embossed on the shackle.

C.G.Edwards & Co.Inc, Boston
is a source for these.

The specs above also suggest that if you do have a factory welded 3/8" oversize link on your 1/4" chain, you will be able to use a regular rated 7/16" USA galv shackle to connect....and be within a SUPPOSED consistant WLL within your anchor system.
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* There are other manufacturers of these double WLL shackles.
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WHAT STRIKES ME ABOUT THIS IS THAT NO ANCHOR MANUFACTURER OR CATALOGER MAKES ANY EFFORT OR RECOMMENDATION TO MAKE THIS VITAL CONNECTOR (FROM ANCHOR TO CHAIN) AVAILABLE.
Imco this missing connector should be supplied by the manufacturer with the anchor when purchased. It should be part of the anchor.
Rather than off the shelf shackles, a specific super shackle for anchor/chain connections could be designed - for both galv anchors and s.s. anchors - for anchor rollers and channel that most anchors are pulled up into and launched from........ How about a forged galv double-jaw toggle with clevis pins......?*
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What we have is a link that can wander the length, short as it is, of the pin. There is a photo of a contorted and parallelogramed s.s. swivel on the net where you can easily see that the link went to one side of the pin against the cheek of the bow ..... and the swivel was then stretched from the 'corners' which also bent the bolt that formed the swivel function. It wasn't broke, but.....
The forces that bent the fitting might have bent any fitting but point is the link was not fair on the pin. Could say the pin was not short enough for the link. The only way we can use an off-the-shelf shackle is to pass the pin through the link.
Therefor we do want a shackle designed specially for a single link.
Logical. But what am I missing here?
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*
http://www.spade-anchor.co.uk/Chain%20Connectionjpg
Sorry, doesn't come through. Close up of toggle and clevis pin connection chain to anchor. Nice and tidy. Toggle is s.s. - galv. chain link not only shows rust but a diminishing of the steel link. Text book on why s.s. and galv. are a bad combo.

[ebb]

ANYBODY HERE HAVE AN OPINION.....?
The use of a swivel in our anchoring system is controversial.
Anchoring out where wind and tides cycle there may be a good reason to try to keep your chain from getting knotted,
which could conceivably get it broke.
Or merely keep it un twisted so it hauls in fair to the windlass.
All cruisers think a swivel is the weakest 'link' in their anchoring gear.

There seems to be an even number of swivels, galvanized and stainless, on the market. Defender has 4 pages.
Every one depends on a center bolt-like affair to do the turning. Nearly every swivel has its bolt unprotected from bending. Some seem to be designed intentionally to make sure the bolt gets bent by having the parts cut away where they meet so that any bending force is unopposed.


Acco Chain makes a swivel for 1/4" and 5/16" link. It is a galvanized fitting.
Being made by a dependable chain maker is as good as provenance gets for a connector. (They DO make regular shackles.)
This fitting looks like siamese twin shackles joined bow to bow - back to back.
However, the join is a rather wide double flange through which a very short stout bolt passes - with a humongous nut and washer holding the twins together.

Don't believe the bolt can't bend the way this "Anchor Chain Rode Swivel" is designed.
The bows come close together to what a normal 3/8" shackle would have with the usual screw pin with enormous eye in each. (Don't have the swivel to measure.) Therefor the strain would ALWAYS go through the center line of the fitting.
This fitting is entirely unique. It looks forged. It looks right, it doesn't have any glaring design flaw, it looks ugly but practical. Whether ANY swivel actually swivels is open to debate. And those nasty projecting pin-heads need fixing.

The Acco ACR Swivel is DESIGNED TO GO WITH 1/4"/5/16" G43 HIGH TEST ACCO CHAIN. That's what the vendors say.

Does it have a WLL of 3900#? Have not been able to verify this number.
The swivel sells at WM (always first on the google list) for $51.99. You see others selling it as high as $83!
At Defender it's $39.19.
imco

[c_amos]

Hey Ebb,

As usual, I have an opinion (yea, what else is new).

I see the swivel as a necessary evil. I do not trust them, and feel they are all a bit shifty.

I especally do not like the kind that have a pin. I think this is were they are most prone to fail. If you have the chain - to a shakle (Crosby, largest that will fit chain) -to the swivel (largest WM stocks 5/8"IIRC) to a shakle (largest that would fit the Manson's shank).

With this arrangement I see no way lateral stress can be applied to the bolt that runs through the middle of the swivel. If the swivel has a pin, and can be attached directly to the anchor, then I see the lateral load working to bend the bolt and break the swivel.

In case this description does not make sence, I will go look for some pictures.

[c_amos]

IMHO;

These are bad.

This kind is bad;



This kind is really bad;



THis kind would be even worse;



This is the kind I prefer;


It was a 5/8" from Fawcett IIRC.

[ebb]

Yep, Craig, the one you say,
this kind would be even WORSE
is the s.s. (probably Suncor, 3/8"-154o#WLL) 'parallel-o-grammed' one mentioned earlier. Here's a pic.
The chain link obviously slid to one side of the shackle, and the anchor took to the other side of the other pin.
Whatever force it was (probably the windlass) transformed a lousy design into a menace.*

None of the others in your 'most avoided' gallery is worth a damn either imco.
But.....


Check out the chain-maker's swivel:
Acco Anchor Chain Rode Swivel - 3900#. (not yet verified.)
If this is the real WLL (see below) the BREAKING load would be in the neighborhood of SIX TONS!)
Take a look at the image at the bottom of this post and COMPARE it to Craig's mug shots.

6 tons breaking load:
In theory almost THREE ARIELS together could be dangled from this fitting.

I've ordered one.
Like you say,
it's a necessary ugly.
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*
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...D/268a3d53.jpg
Could be this cripple is a Seadog product. Jamestown is unloading them for $8 to $23.
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TOO TRUE TO BE GOOD?
It's easy enough to get on the Peerless/Acco site where you can preview a download of Acco marine chain and accessories catalog. The "Anchor Rode Swivel" #440640011 on pg 19 clearly states the WLL for this fitting is 1500# WLL.

CLEARLY STATES THE WORKING LOAD LIMIT FOR THEIR FITTING IS 1500# WLL.
West Marine clearly states: 3900lbs SW.
SW?...................semi wood.

....So I called Peerless - and the rep she has not phoned back. I will try to get to the bottom of this! Need to get them live, they never call back.
Every online seller uses almost the same description BUT lists the SW as 3900# (except Defender: 3000#, which must be a misprint).

Assume SW means Safe Working in consumer-eeze. Have no idea what it means.
SWL is an OBSOLETE term using the word 'safe'. Lawyers liked it too much, so the industry changed it to WLL - now embossed on steel everywhere.

I'm feeling really pissed at these shills.
If they have invented a sleeze term to inflate the real and much less WLL, that's DECEPTION.
Who do I believe: the Peerless Acco Catalog OR the vendors?

It's as crooked as that stainless spaghetti shackle. What does this 3900 number really mean? Why are all the vendors using this apparent misrepresentation?
In the vendors' brief descriptions, the 3900# number is nowhere tagged with a WLL.
Here's how Defender puts it:
"...engineered to meet the workload of acco 1/4 and 5/16 grade high test chain (3000lbs)." [sic]
That's patent BS.
Acco's Working Load Limit for 1/4" G43 High Test is: 2600lbs. For 5/16" it's 3900lbs.
So we know where the number comes from. BUT it relates to chain not the swivel.
imco

Found 8 or 9 onlines selling the same swivel for $85.91 ranging down to $33.99.
Here's an attempt to access an image:
http://www.keenzo.com/zoom.asp?zoom=3182175
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High test don't see no stinkin WLLs on that Acco Swivel either!

[ebb]

Just talked with a rep at Peerless Chain.
The swivel is rated differently than chain.
Chain you can multiply the Working Load Limit by 4 to get the Breaking Load Limit. Sometimes written as Breaking Strength or BS.
With the Acco Chain Rode Swivel your mutiplyer is 8 times the WLL.
Therefor the 1500# WLL on the swivel (as stated in the catalog) has a 12,000 # Breaking Limit.
Peerless is a member of the NACM which sets chain standards and one assumes the chain rode swivel standards as well.

OK?
That's what I was told.
I'm not going to seriously pursue this any longer.


Taking a look at the Acco swivel I see that the bolt is protected from bending. The two pieces (call em shackles) cannot be pulled in any direction but straight on.
Of all the galvanized swivels this is the ONLY design that protects the bolt from bending.
There is of course some Murphy method the bolt could be stressed - but until somebody posts a spaghetti version of a compromised Acco Swivel fitting I'm convinced.

I like the convenience of having the pins available at the business ends of the fitting. It is possible that a chain link could seat on one side of the pin and the anchor seat on the opposite side. But it is imco unlikely to end up like the suncor/seadog swivel. Imco there is too little available space on the pin for the link or the anchor to take an offcenter position.

If I was going to worry about the pull on the swivel not being strate with the center bolt
I'd make up some polyethylene washers to use to center the chain. The stuff comes in many thicknesses, it's cheap, and easy to drill and shape. [Holesaw would do it!]

That's it on this.
Craig, what do you think? Is the Acco at least interesting?
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Don't trust me. I don't trust me, it's easy to get things wrong, or hear what you want to hear, you know.
Peerless Industrial Group - 1416 East Sanborn Street - Winona, MN 55987.
1-800-873-1916. Their Contact page invites us to get in touch.
I've called maybe 4 times, each time got a pleasant response and a shunt to the marine division, a message machine, and never got a call back from Donna. The last guy who picked up was obviously knowledgable, he was the one who clued me on the different WLLs of chain and the fitting,
WE SHOULD HAVE A CONFIRMATION ON THIS NUMBER (1500#WLL) FOR THIS SWIVEL. Actually I would like to see this in print. We want to know how, when, why, and where we can disregard this fitting's WLL. and just tune it up to 3900#WLL because it's important to..... I'd trust the source over the vendor anyday!
anybody?

[c_amos]

Craig, what do you think? Is the Acco at least interesting?

I like the numbers you are getting on the Acco swivel, and I like the way the bolt is protected. I do not like the 'dual fork' version though, maybe a single fork, with a loop in the other end... ?

The issue as I see it with the 'fork' design is that if the load is anything other then directly in line if you have the fork attached to the shank of the anchor you are going to apply some crazy side loads. These loads would not only be applied to the bolt, but to the forks. I see lots of failure points in that set up.

The fork end attached to the chain would not be a problem (IMHO) since it is free to pivot on all axies. The fork end attached to the shank of the anchor (lets say you are pulling on an anchor 30degrees off of the direction it was set.). Your trying to collapse the parallelagram you have in the fork and pin of the swivel.

Is that clear as mud?

[ebb]

Totally clear, Craig,
I see what you mean.
Some of the fancy and useless (so far as I don't know) stainless swivels also come with an added knuckle because this is recognized as a big problem.
But even a simple toggle action could run afoul of the positions an anchor shank might take.

The Acco swivel is only made in that one model (pins on the ends) and in only that size.
(The rep said they made a larger size but it didn't sell.)
If more people saw it as a solution ther might be a bow ended model.

But you have to admit the pins on that swivel are pretty close and tight and will keep what is connected to it
in the middle of the fitting and in line with the swivel BOLT.


So, how about this compromise?
A 7/16" (with a 1/2" pin) anchor shackle will fit perfectly on our 25# Supreme.
You can put the bow through....
or attach the shackle to the anchor with the pin.
That's the way I'd suggest. It makes a simple hinge action.
[And that slot has been punched thru and left with sharp edges by Manson.
Better not to have a shackle bow hinge on that. I think the pin is OK there.]

Then you attach the Acco swivel to the bow of that shackle.
That would add almost a universal joint action - not quite, but huge more attitude.

I know, I know, they will say you are adding another possible fail point, another unknown, another questionable connection.
That 7/16" Crosby ALLOY anchor shackle is rated at 2.6Tons or 5200#WLL.
A miserable 20,800# breaking strength. Wire the pin.

The Acco would be attached to the BOW of that shackle. Wire the pins.
And that would make it more free to move in whatever unexpected direction the chain is pulling at the anchor. YES?

And don't forget you have some swiveling goin on there too.
Won't it work???
Can't see it binding.

Whatever has to be threaded on any shackle pin can be positively centered on the pin with those homemade polyethylene washers. Or something else.
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What are facts but compromises?
A fact merely marks the point where we have agreed to let investigation cease. (Bliss Carman)

[c_amos]

By Jove I think you have got it!

Yes, Ebb I think you have got the answer there. I like the shakle pin to the anchor (whatever is the biggest that will fit... 7/16" sounds right. Pin one end of the swivel to the shackle, and in my mind you have achieved the stress relief for the fork/pin on the swivel. Yes, you are right, there is another failure point but in my current system there are 2 shakles and a swivel so I only have one less pin.... and all to use a weaker swivel then your arrangement.

I will look for one of those swivels myself..

Yes! Oh Yes! the seizing wire is a MUST. the more the better (within reason.. unlike the rest of the rode.)

[Tim D.]

I had to order some pieces for my propane locker installation from Defender, so I had them throw in an Acco swivel.

[Tim D.]

received my order from Defender, and I am impressed with the swivel unfortunately I pulled an Ebb and forgot to take a picture before taking it out to the boat and this pic does not do it justice, it is LARGE.

[ebb]

The problem is those old fashioned pin heads.
Obviously you can use a big marlin spike in the big eye to get big purchase to untighten the pin.
[Might be good to use some Lanocote when assembling.
I'd grease the center bolt, too.]

Have some old chain shackles ('D' shackles) whose pins, instead of a squid eye, have a simple 90 degree half circle protrusion that has a small hole in it for wiring. Doesn't stick out of the side much at all. Maybe unscrewing it would be a problem because there isn't much to grab on to even with a visegrip. Looks good though!
Believe that screwpins are 100% more safe than loose clevis pins. It's the kind of redundancy I want with chain and anchor.

The Peerless Chain guy on the phone suffered me as gladly as he could but didn't think there were any other pins available for the Acco fitting. Yet I'm pretty sure it's not the first time someone has complained about the lopsided inconvenience of that style screwpin. Those shacklepins are holdovers from the square-rigger days imco.

On some of those sleek but weak stainless fittings they put a pin in place with a hex socket. Nothing sticks out.

If galvanized shackles like primates followed some 'natural selection'
they would progress to a square socket headed screwpin (rather than the usual hex)
The heads would stick out a little from the body of the shackle
and have one or two holes thru the rim of the 'cup', let's call it, where 4 or 5 turns of keeper wire could be passed.
We'd use a socket wrench tool's 1/4" drive to turn the pinhead.

The Acco Chain Rode Swivel, as it is, IS a rather ungainly fitting that could be made more convenient and efficient if the pins were redesigned with modern anchor rollers and channel in mind. Might even look shipshape!


And those double WLL Alloy anchor shackles should have the same nice tidy pins as well.
imco

[ebb]

Paint-on cold galvanizing does not have a good rep.
BUT this compound may be just the long lasting product we've been looking for to use on anchors and fittings. (They say) it is equivalent to hot dip!
Chain and large rusty steel has to be sandblasted
or cooked in acid baths at the galvanizers.

BUT if the part is irreplaceable and attached to the boat, hand sanding/grinding to base metal* and then applying this stuff may be just thing to erase a rust problem.
They say it is equal to hot dip.

It is 95% zinc. The literature says the zinc is pure - not gathered from recycling.
The 'secret binder' is epoxy based and doesn't encapsulate the zinc particles.
The zinc is able to make the necessary electrochemical bond with steel.

www.zrcworldwide.com

I had a friendly and helpful exchange of emails with Lorraine Dewald from their plant in MA. ZRC is not available retail.
She gave me a wholesale distributor's San Francisco phone who was happy to sell me a quart for around $37 ( published price) plus UPS. The stuff is non-haz-mat.
It comes in other forms including a non-clogging aerosol version. Remember, these films will not work over rust. Rust has to be removed.*
This source did not have the 1/2 pint cans I would have prefered.
One assumes cans will sit around for long periods and small ones would be more convenient.
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Quart can arrived - weighs 6#! Altho I was told the material was thick, when the can was opened and stirred up it really isn't any different than a heavy paint. The metal was not compacted in the bottom, easy to mix into the liquid. It won't need to be thinned. While the binder is said to be epoxy there is no catalyst to add. Straight out of the can like paint.
It's dark gray like old galvanizing. They make a shiny new look ZRC also.
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*Phosphoric Acid (Naval Jelly) the gel removes rust easily- but slowly. Does a good job getting rust out of small pits and cracks. Anchors, anchor fittings and tools. Excellent for small jobs, that frozen brown crescent wrench, maybe even short pieces of chain. Rinses with water.
For ZRC to do its thing it must have clean bare metal - but cosmetically I'm sure it paints over any existing hot dip just fine.
Boshield Rust Free comes in an 8oz pump bottle spray. A phosphoric acid and alcohol mix - it's a water like consistency. Said to work fast and remove rust and rust stain from nearly anything: cloth (sails?), vinyl, fiberglass, chrome, s.s. and steels. Maybe it'll work on the anchor gear. Soap and water.
Haven't tried it yet.
imco

[ebb]

Won't bore you with the text.

On my desk here, side by side, I have an Acco Chain rode Swivel and a Crosby alloy anchor shackle - 3/8" 2ton WLL. The swivel pins measure 23/64"D - under 3/8"s. The alloy shackle pin measures just under 7/16"D.
This 3/8" shackle pin fits 1/4" galv. chain link PERFECTLY.

[LATER POSTS HERE REVEAL THAT THIS LINK MEASURE IS NOT GOOD FOR G43 CHAIN - BE WARNED!!!] The Crosby Alloy 3/8" super shackle pin will fit G30 but NOT G43.

High Test G43 1/4" chain has a 2600# WLL.
This galv. alloy shackle is imco a good match for the link between chain and anchor.


Reading the embossed numbers on the Acco swivel:
There is what appears to be a date stamp: 06/07.
Also 3/4T. (no WLL.)*
On the other shackle of the swivel it says Acco. Then 1/4-5/16. And G4.
The pins are plain without markings.


I pointed out to Peerless in my letters that matching work load limits within an anchor rode system is most important for sailors. I intimated that the pins in the swivel should be equal with the pins in the 3/8" alloy anchor shackle - especially if the swivel is to be used with 5/16" chain.

I complemented the swivel design as the best of all the galvanized swivels available. The bolt (not really a bolt as it is part of the forging of one of the halves) is about 19/32"D, just under 5/8". Pretty hefty.

Told them that if a binding pull came on the fitting with the two pieces at 90 degrees to each other
THERE IS VERY LITTLE MEAT PROTECTING THE BOLT AT THE MATING FLANGES.
Maybe the bolt wouldn't bend perse, but most of the strain would be on the bolt and the holes thru the shackle rather than bearing on the flanges which should be fully circular to fully protect the swivel bolt at any angle of pull. It is the wide flange surfaces of the two pieces of the swivel that appear to make the Acco swivel unique. At 90 degress THERE IS ONLY 1/4" SURFACE BEARING ON THE OPPOSING FLANGE. This is a fault.

Also mentioned that the traditional clipper ship shackle pin eyes had seen they day
and that a shorter pin head was called for.


I don't expect a reply from Peerless. We do what we have to do.
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* Because some voice on the phone says the Working Load Limits for anchor swivels is different than they are for chain... DON'T MAKE IT SO.
WLL is a recognized standard that we can work with
and THAT understanding should hold and be recognized when comparing swivels to chain as we do with chain and shackles.

[Tony G]

Bear with me on this, Ebb et al. Is this the sequence you have suggested? Manson Supreme--->Acco 3/8" swivel--->Crosby 3/8" shackle--->HT 1/4" chain.
I haven't put much time into studying anchor set-up yet so I'm behind on this thread. Couple that with the fact that I know I'm a much better reader than spellar and then compound the issue by realizing it will take me five times to realize by reading what I can get from a picture just once. Put it all together and shazam!! the light comes on.