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Thread: New Generation Anchor

  1. #211
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pensacola, FL
    Posts
    722
    I found the Link by searching YouTube, here it is;

    https://youtu.be/52vu7bbvqC0

    I am glad he made it, I agree with his initial assessment, but I prefer to have more then one anchor.... I rode out hurricane Noel aboard Faith, my Manson Supreme had the load but my fortress(s) were set as a backup just in case... I agree with mis statements about the humming, vibrating, and banging of the wind.... really much more loud then one might expect!


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  2. #212
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,534

    Exclamation one storm Mantus on two rodes

    Current experienced cruiser forums advise much more conservative
    approaches to storm anchoring, some advising to put out as many
    as 4 anchors. Some tandem on a single rode.
    Craig, setting at least two anchors for a blow is the way it should go.
    Your hurricane ride on Supreme impressed me immensely. Of course,
    I didn't remember you doubled with Fortress. I've whole-hogged on
    Supreme long time because of your positive experience with it.

    When I get there, littlegull will carry two Primarys: a 35lb galv and
    same size aluminum Spade as stern. Take apart Fortress, Maybe a
    Mantus as storm. Current Mantus is experimental. It has to morph
    into a simpler, more intelligent anchor.

    Pair of Spades are also take-aparts but essentially pin together
    almost instantly, rather than Mantus' requiring six bolts, wrench, all
    PITA small parts incl lock washers -- 4 of which have large sharp
    hex heads sticking out of fluke bottom, where we would naturally
    down it on deck! Stupid... And roll bar too big and prone to fouling,
    below and on the bow. Mantus flat creased fluke blade has no equal.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The large mantid (triangular head, long slender body) UMA set for
    storm Matthew, not knowing its size, looked imco, to what might be
    regularly set as the primary. That the monster performed flawlessly
    says huge about design and 'deep set' stability. In 24 hrs of chaos,
    UMA never GPSed an inch!!

    Dan's* anti-chafe procedures are good. Imco chafe protection like
    firehose should always be lashed to chocks, not the line, and be
    larger diameter than the rope it cradles, for water wash.
    *That will have to do. Haven't found their names yet. Youtubes are
    very well done, bright, energetic, topped with confidence. . They
    are doing/done everything right on the upgrade of their cruiser!


    Later EDIT {OK. Previous assumptions here have been erased. Went
    back for a second look to "Sailing Uma, step 55" - Post storm, where
    he puts the boat back together. He winches the two rodes in
    simultaneously, port and starboard. Each rode is spliced to its own
    chain, hauled onto the bow thru large rattling chocks and over deck
    with the cockpit port and starboard sheet winches. This means of
    course both chains must each be attached to a single Crosby 209A
    shackle. There's a simplicity & logic to this system, riding one hook.}


    Mantus, when finally hauled in using spinnaker-pole and main
    halyard, revealed the buoy trip line fouled tightly twice around fluke
    and shaft, "but didn't seem to bother it too much."

    He set no bridle/snubber either. But two 7:1 rodes may have acted
    to 'soften' surges. Single nylon line working inside chafe protection
    at the chock has been known to melt. Two lines mo'betta, sharing
    the work. If I set two anchors to ride out a storm, it would be with
    separate rode, as you say. Line always (altho I have no experience)
    seems like the weak link in a storm survival situation. BUT you must
    be holding a "badass anchor." And new quadplait oversized rode.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Accessing the Steve Goodwin SV PANOPE YouTube series anchor
    tests, you might be persuaded, if you're cruising, to check out his
    Supreme and Rocna reset tests, where both act badly because the
    flukes at initial set hold bottom material, won't let it go, won't let
    it slip off when pulled around 180 from initial set, as in tidal change,
    causing the hooks to pull out, unable to reset, because they fouled.
    Don't want this sequence of events at an unknown anchorage.

    What have you experienced? Imco the Goodwin tests are authentic,
    even if some sailors don't like the short scope and quick 180s. I do.
    When it lets go, we want to know with what anchor we trust below.

    Haven't been looking in on SailFar. I mean to, but I'm so jealous
    and embarrassed. Hope you are well and enjoying the sailing life.

    Thanks for the blue line!!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    TEN ATTRIBUTES OF AN ALL PURPOSE ANCHOR. Here are
    seven Spade Safety Criteria from their uk site: The anchor

    1. must dig in fast.

    2. must bury deep.

    3. give max holding without dragging.

    4. have constant resistance to movement
    ---even if eventually moves under extreme load.

    5. must hold despite wind or current shifts. (reset)

    6. rode must not foul the anchor.

    7. must be strong enough to withstand very high loads.

    . Does not require special mooring line
    ---or special anchoring technique.

    . Snug in bow roller / self launching / self retrieving.

    . Easily dismantled.


    The range of Spade anchors should be CS certified. And Mantus too!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Crosby SHACKLES
    are the best American made galvanised shackles money can buy.
    C. makes can't-fail-within-their-rating industrial rigging products.
    Ubicquitous ( copied by others) trademark RED PIN in a shackle
    once signaled an alloy pin twice as strong as an unpainted pin.
    They make all kinds of shackles. The red pin is now a brand
    mark. But always is a double strong alloy pin in a Crosby shackle.
    Nowadays any colored pins make any shackle seem more special.

    Defender** stocks two kinds of Crosby: G-209A and G209.
    The working load limit for a G-209 3/8" shackle is one metric ton.
    WLL (embossed on side of bow) for a G-209A 3/8" shackle is two
    metric tons (4410 lbs).
    Defender carries the full range of each 'forged-quenched-tempered'
    screw-pin shackle. However, there is a red alloy pin in the G-209.

    but Twice as strong G-209A - with alloy pin that is plain galvanise,
    not red
    - looks like regular shackle except for numbers embossed.
    The whole shackle has twice the working load of a G209.

    Is there any reason not to have a double strong bow shackle on
    your best bower?
    MANTUS* 316s.s. (3/8"- WL 3/4 ton) -as does any s.s. shackle
    all have lower working loads than any Crosby. Crosby does not
    make s.s. bow shackles.
    D shackles are called chain shackles by Crosby.
    Counterfeit Crosby bow shackles are around, probably not in USA.

    *Mantus now has unique eyeless pin ss bow shackles. Also sell galv.
    bow shackles. They do not say where these shackles are made.
    They are otherwise spec'ed, and the eyeless pin is worth discussion.


    AS OF 2/2018
    ** Defender in their 2018 Catalog tops their nameless Crosby list
    with a Titan brand. I immediately flash: China!. Yup, TitanMarine is
    a trade name of CMPCanadianMetalPacific. Why else name Asian
    manufactory after an ancient race of Greek giants? CMP rescued
    PeterSmith's RocnaAnchor after its infamous fraud debacle. Now
    advertised as "Original Rocna's", they are no longer fabricated in
    NewZealand but in China with a cast metal fluke. That's an original
    Smith-style lie. His 100% cast anchor: Vulcan (Roman metalwork
    god) is cast (not forged) in China. Who is to say that CMP chain/
    shackles are not made in China? Which is not to say they're faulty

    - but true origin hidden, cast metal for anchors never revealed,
    NO product actually made in Canada, as we are led to believe.

    Why trust these people? Any of this equal to a real Crosby?

    CanadaMetalPacific CMP, as far as I can find, is a global sourcing
    distributor, based in Canada, with all metal products including their
    extensive range of Martyr anodes, made in China by workers making
    about $2.50 an hour.

    Go ahead,
    buy the halfassed Titan 3/8" shackle for $6.50 less than the G209A...

    MOTTO Never smarten up a chump or give a sucker an even break.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    .

    New beginnings are often disguised as painful endings. Lao Tzu
    .
    Last edited by ebb; Today at 11:14 AM.

  3. #213
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,534

    Exclamation Spade reset

    Goodwin's 90+ sv PANOPE Youtube videos, taken together, are an
    extraordinary tour deforce, and gift to us. But Video #56, taken alone,
    is the most reliable anchor 'compilation' we'll ever experience. It's a
    deep five part study of common anchors of our time. This one video
    says it all, surely the most significant anchor study ever put together.


    Notable what anchors are not included -- without comment. Crocna anchor
    totally ignored in this summary survey. ...You've been reading these past posts,
    you know this thing-a-mapete hook has personally been tossed into the
    Pit of Doom.

    WET
    This focus must bother some sailors a lot. But a lot really is in limbo if you are
    not yet cruising, or limit cruising to certain areas.
    FIXED FLUKE
    blade style galv. steel anchors: flat-creased - flat-curved - convex - concave
    -- rollbars Mantus, Supreme, Super Sarca, Rocna, will, by all rights, when pulled
    around in a rotation after initial set, turn through the seafloor, and still buried or
    not, reset in a 180. No reset if pulled around with sea floor stuck in the fluke.
    PANOPE videos show clumps stuck on specific shafts. Supreme-Fail. Rocna-Fail.

    Mantus - 50% tip weight, makes a fuss in 180, but resets instantly. (Video #62)

    Vented Sarca - 33%, fails reset. Convex blade fluke, downcurved tip - dragged.
    YET Rex Francis' original Sarca, in a heftier version did well in later videos.
    (#43>#48). From a dry point of view: a clever design, but not simple enough.
    From mixed performances, it can drag instead of reset. It's probably best where
    it originally was intended: on the bow of small Aussie fishing boats.

    (If you like plow style anchors, Rex has created the vented EXCEL 20%, which
    looks like Simpson-Lawrence Delta plow, but completely corrects & obsoletes it.
    Excell and Sarca -- two of only four anchors anointed by Goodwin.)


    It is true, and obvious, that blade anchors won't always reset in all bottoms.
    But if they clear off material during 180, or shortly after: they have to reset.
    We have to understand our Prmary. No maybes. When a heavy tip weight
    anchor pulls out, we're pretty sure it will dig back in and reset everytime.

    Both Supreme and Rocna are not dependable. They have problem tip
    weights. And real serious problems resetting after rotation.
    From Goodwin's svPANOPE Video #56: Tip weight: Mantus 50% - Supreme 23%
    - Crocna 30% (guess) - Spade 42%, as test measured, home page says 50%.


    DRY -- AN UNCOMMONLY COOL LOOKING ANCHOR
    Masterfully designed with common low carbon A36 steel. Flawlessly fabricated
    inTunisia. (wage: $3.00 per hr equivalent ) Welding doesn't alter tensil strength.
    Assume unlikely bent shaft can be persuaded back straight without weakening.
    WET
    Wedge fluke SPADE is known to tumble or pull out in a 180. It does not readily
    collect seabed. (Not always the case, there's sticky mud out there.) Yet, NO roll
    bar Spade helped by its heavy tip resets immediately. Certainly witnessed in the
    GoPro record we now have. It tumbles probably because the tetrahedral under
    body is unlikely when set to move sideways as the shaft rotates. Imco, sideways
    pull pushes the anchor up and out of set.
    [YouTube: Goodwin SV PANOPE. Spade videos, #12, #13, #55 and #27, #64.]

    The Spade seems to overcome pulling out and other limitations, like its concave
    fluke, imco. Could be fluke-top geometry is a perfect fluid concavity - that other
    Spade-inspired anchors have failed to copy correctly.
    {Have seen no proof that a concave spoon shaped fluke top actually contributes
    to an anchor holding better than flat or convex.}
    Spade shaft's slender entry thru fluke with carefully fabricated triangular section
    may also help shed seabed without need for vents. Steel Spade is smooth galv,
    and signature yellow paint unloads material from its slippery fluke.

    Assume deepest set can be achieved with an unencumbered flat blade design.*
    Wedge volume must displace more sea floor to set deep. May not always.
    It's my opinion, of course, these limits on Spade. They seem in balance, coming
    together in an anchor better than its compromises. Spade fluke geometry is the
    most copied by all modern single fluke anchors. Cuts thru kelp. Holds in rock.
    Afterall, the design works: When Spade pulls out: we count on reset.

    Housed, on display in a bow roller, the open ended tetrahedron looks unfinished
    or like something's missing, like a couple lithium batteries must've fallen out.

    Could say The Spade has a forgiving quality = Reliability. That's a friendly thing.
    It's about trust.
    Many cruisers depend on steel Spade for their Primary.

    NONESUCH ALL-PURPOSE CRUISING ANCHOR
    *Imagine a hybrid Spade/Mantus. Creased Mantus fluke married to a
    curved 3-sided Spade shaft with a very sharp tetrahedral wedge
    under fluke holding the extra weight and Poiraud's clean single pin
    mortise/tenon innovation. NO HOOP. Toolless take apart.



    Visual inspection of the S80 steel Spade shank in my possession - what can be
    seen inside with a 1300 lumen led flashlight - seems equal to the galvanise
    outside. There's a tiny breather hole visable inside the shaft shackle cutout.
    There to help molten zinc get into the narrow end. Imco keeping it open can
    help clear mud from living inside.

    Rust problems on a sound anchor? Aluminum-filled MCU coating ALUTHANE
    will check corrosion as well if not better than regalvanising.


    Out of the gargle of successful and partially successful anchors, Goodwin's 4
    only 'never-fail' set/reset anchors are: Super Sarca - Excel - Mantus - Spade.



    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    DEFENDER UNLOADING MANSON ANCHORS
    Schaefer, importer of Manson Anchors, seems to have ended their contract.
    Defender is having
    a final? closeout sale of every Boss and Supreme.
    As of 1/1/18, Schaefer's home page has yet to say anything about their deal
    with Manson. But Schaefer has a deal for you: a Manson Danforth style Racer
    anchor, $212.35 now for $35 ! (What's that called, plummet pricing?)

    Wonder if Goodwin has anything to do with this...? (Schaefer axing Manson.)
    Don't know if Schaefer had exclusive US import concession. Glad they quit.
    Schaefer is a precision tool company. Disconcerting to find Manson Anchors
    and its turgid copywriting on Schaefer's home internet page.

    Manson Boss meant to be the answer for power boats generally unable to
    house rollbar fluke Supreme. Marketed as a powerboat anchor. (focus may
    be a mistake.) It could be a pretty good anchor. Maybe just never caught on.
    PB owners probably aren't anchor style conscious. Boss attempts to be an
    anchor that on seafloor orients itself to penetrate without needing an
    appendage.
    Design result seems to have been to do it without increasing tip weight by
    adding fluke area! Boss also has a disconcerting and useless 'rock slot' shank
    that visually dooms the design. Manson & Rocna both depend on customers to
    test their new gen anchors -- rather than copacetic inhouse R&D to work bugs
    out -- before going into production and foisting thousands of half fast designs
    on world-wide sailors. Good enough not good enough for any boat anchor.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    INDEPENDANT ANCHOR TESTING
    Turns out tip weight really is what first delivers a successful single fluke anchor.
    Not always, of course. But our smaller lighter anchors benefit from tip-weight.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    ANCHOR QUALITY
    The only people responsible for quality testing anchors are the makers, There is
    no agency, society, third party that oversees 'recreational anchors'. There are
    'certifiers': Lloyds, RINA and others hired by the manufacturer to certify materials
    used, but not construction methods. Costwise, it's understandable no 3rd party is
    regularly seafloor testing -- or ultimate shaft to fluke break and bend testing.

    EVERY AUTHENTIC COMMERCIALLY SOLD YACHT ANCHOR SHOULD SUBMIT TO
    A VOLUNTARY Certification Society CS PROOF TEST.
    This is a decades old shank to fluke certification proof test that all makers sign on
    to. Some don't. Some won't.
    imco, All commercially sold yacht anchors ought to be rated exactly like chain
    and shackles are, with WWL (working load limit), and a modified- UBS rating
    (ultimate breaking strength). This will help put anchors on the same sea floor.

    Brute strength does not necessarily make a first class anchor. Manufacturers that
    hide or omit common specifications cannot be wholly trusted. Nor trusted at all!

    Manufacturer's home page dragging videos, beach/underwater, are always a con.
    Hard to guess whose product tops all the others?
    'Responsible' is not an operative word here.
    'Reliable', often used -- but impossible to prove.

    If you depend on an anchor, be sure yours is dependable..... Loud Sue
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    You never enjoy the world aright,

    till the sea itself floweth in your veins,

    till you are clothed with the heavens

    and crowned with the stars:

    and perceive yourself to be the sole

    heir of the whole world....
    Thomas Traherne 1636 - 1674

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    Last edited by ebb; Yesterday at 10:00 AM.

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