Handrails ARIEL

[mbd]

Just to add to the discussion: I've been very satisfied with my installation of the new handrails. I've had kids swinging from them and never worried. It has been nice to be able to insert a screw driver from below and check for tightness. A couple of the bolts on my old ones had stripped or loosened, and I could ever tighten them up without de-bunging from the top, which was very annoying.

I removed mine this year because I'm chasing down a mysterious and annoying water leak and wanted to start from the top down and be sure the rails weren't the culprits.

Also, my varnish is wearing through after 2 seasons. Six coats worked well for one season, but is wearing through after two. In hind sight, I should have applied a couple of maintenance coats last season. But, it was nice to be able to just unscrew and remove them and varnish away in the basement.

I'm not a blue water cruiser, so don't feel the added security of the through bolting method was necessary. But, I'm happy with strength and the easily maintainable setup I've got now.

I WILL definitely use Ebb's holesaw idea from underneath however! Great idea!

[ebb]

Mike,
Water gets in as we know thru the unmodified windows.
The frames do a pisspoor job sealing water out.
As constructed by Pearson there is no way to keep water from leaking into the liner thru the window openings.

Another egress maybe thru the sidelights if you still have them.

Or thru the wood instrument panel if still there by the companionway.
Or any thru-hole instruments on either side of the opening.
Any cracks or seams in the c'way woodwork might let water into the liner shell. Mine was put together with disfunctional silicon, which could have actually channeled leaks into the liner.

When I took the c'way hatch slide apart I remember seeing that the liner shell was open in the front across the opening.
Both the cabin molding and the cabin liner molding turn up here and are covered by the the woodwork. In Little Gull's case the cabin molding edge was really ragged and wasn't making a good dam keeping water out. That was my diagnosis.
There was in fact even a ramp of plastic across the front of the opening that would have made it easy for water washing around in there to go down into the liner space. I didn't test it.
After the metal slides came off, the interior liner space was exposed along there also. (just looked up the old decommish photos.) This meant that water getting into the channel between the wood 'logs that the hatch slides on and the inner coaming could have gotten into the liner.


Ah, leak forensics, difficult, but so much more fun than sailing!

[josh#74]

I thought the cabin was cored for some reason. To me the hole saw idea seems like it could work pretty well on the underside of a deck in certain situations. My new deck is mostly solid glass so I won't have to deal with core issues any more.

[ebb]

Hey Josh, you're welcome but I'm assuming you didn't see post 45.
The Ariel cabin deck is cored on the top (NOT THE SIDES where the windows are) and along the side decks (back to the cockpit.)

Using the holesaw is ONLY to open up a space around a fastening that is drilled through the LINER

after the fastening hole has been drilled through the deck sandwich which has the core in it.
(assuming the hole is being drilled through from outside)

The independent liner is about 3/32" thick. It is a gel-coated SHELL.
It is NOT actually attached or glued to the underside of the deck.
It is NOT part of the deck.
There is in most cases an actual space separating the bottom of the deck and the liner shell.
You can push against it and bend it!
It is NOT the hard and stiff cabin sandwich which has a core and is an entirely different structure
and a different kind of structure.

When the holesaw is touched to the liner it will instantly cut a disk out of the liner.
You would not and should not drill any deeper. Unless you want to start a hole in the underside of the deck or the cabin roof.
The holesaw is only a convenience to make a neat shape in the liner.
The idea is to put in a solid pad of thickened epoxy in the empty space the holesaw revealed -then glue the disk the holesaw made back on so that you can (after the epoxy has hardened) cinch up a fastening without bending the thin liner shell.

You would not use the holesaw, for instance, on the roof in the V-berth area forward of the compression beam where there is NO liner. In the V'berth area when you look up you are seeing the inside of the cored deck WITHOUT any liner over it.

[josh#74]

Thanks Ebb, I have read somewhere, where it was recommended to use a hole saw on the inside of a cored hull. In basically the same manner as you describe. Only to remove the inside layer of glass, so that you can remove more balsa and get a better seal from the rest off the core.
Of course they also recommend laying more glass over the patched hole.
Anyway, I understand what you were trying say now, Thanks.

[ebb]

Josh, sir,
Sealing off the core in a fastner hole, or any hole in a balsa core, is a bit tedious. Excavating or reaming with a BENT NAIL doesn't work too good. Not recommended.

Better is to use a 5/64" or 3/32" Allen head right angle wrench/key that has its short end shortened.
Need a vise to hold the wrench and a Lennox bi-metal blade in a hacksaw frame to cut the wrench.
If you can't cut it nicely, use a ViseGrip to hold the wrench, grind/score the metal on the edge of a grinding wheel and break it off with another pair of pliers.

You need at most about a 1/4" turn. That's about all that can be managed in healthy balsa. That will make a 1/4" deep cave all around the hole.
Leave the ragged burr edge on your new reamer.
If the action of this reamer is too rough when you try it in the hole, you may want to make an even shorter one. You can begin the process by first attempting to gouge out some of the balsa exposed in the hole with a dental pick. Creating a space for the reamer to begin spinning.
This is a dangerous trick. You can run into something solid - not balsa - that will stop the process all of a sudden. Bend or break the Allen wrench. If you have a macho drill it could twist your wrist. Run the drill very SLOW.

You can try a longer bend reamer after you clean out with the shorter. So you might make a set. Even slightly longer ones get dangerous! Use a variable speed drill or one you can run REAL slow!
Healthy sandwich core is quite difficult to ream because you run into mini spikes of solid polyester that tie into the endgrain of the balsa. The fiberglass married to the balsa inside the sandwich is not smooth.

Another way, another method - as you point out - is to drill the hole for the fastening thru then take a larger bit and drill partially down to the inner fiberglass. Difficult.
[McMasterCarr has a range of 'cap-screw counterbores' with a smooth pilot that will drill a slightly large hole than the pilot: a 1/4" drilled hole/pilot will make a 3/8" 'counterbore'. Not really enough for a rim imco, but you might find something else in the catalog.]



Imco a BETTER way to do this is to drill the larger hole first with a brad point bit or a saw-toothed Forstner bit* which will give you a flatter/cleaner hole thereby excavating more of the balsa.
Do not drill all the way thru the composite sandwich. Make a cup. Maybe no more than 1/2" deep, there-abouts.
Don't break thru the bottom layer of fiberglass. Especially where you have a liner inside.
Imco you can even leave balsa in the bottom of this short hole because it is endgrain and whatever is not hardened with ancient polyester will soak up the new epoxy.
Excavate around the hole.
Then fill the hole with thickened epoxy and later drill the correct size fastener hole. That way you won't need to ductape a thru hole to fill it. Canceling another extra step.
All horizontal fastener holes can be premade this way. If these circular fillers are large enough, it won't matter if the fastner hole is off center a little.
I would personally do it this way where you have fasteners going thru the cabin roof. The holes can be made - the balsa protected - then drilled thru the liner where you can deal with the space behind the liner as you wish.



(IF you do drill thru the whole sandwich with a large bit: Excavate balsa around the hole. Tape off the hole inside (you'll HAVE TO make a holesaw disk cutout in the liner), and fill it. But it would be a good idea to GLUE a backing plate on over a large hole 'fixed' this way

Stanchion bases might be good with extra sized hole doughnuts. Remember on the Ariel you'll run into solid glass near the toerail. Aft of the cabin the deck is solid (no core) glass. You will still want backing plates.


This can go on.
But surfice to say,
First, befor you fill with thickened epoxy, douse the hole and the balsa liberally with plain runny epoxy.
Close the hole off inside with ductape or carpet tape (which has a more aggressive adhesive), if you've drilled thru, and fill it with liquid epoxy. Then, paper towel at the ready, pull the tape back in a flap and 'drain' it. THAT is a seal! Then seal the hole back up and continue with the thickened stuff.
Small holes that you will redrill exactly in the center imco can be filled with liquid epoxy and left to set. The liquid will soak in to the balsa, a little or a lot, just fill later. If you are mounting a fitting with tube rubber a depression around the bolt or screw shoulder may make for a better seal.

Have fun!
Good exercise going in and out and running all about.
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*Using a Forstner bit that is designed for wood, using it on old fiberglass will void any sharpness it ever had. And REsharpening a Forstner bit is not for sissies.
Rockler has HSS individual SAW-TOOTH Forstner bits in the $5 range.
Rockler also carries HSS 3/4. 7/8 and 1" brad point bits: $13 to $21. They would last longer than the Forstners and be easier to use.
Buy specific bits for a job (like attaching track to the deck) You'll be tossing the bits after drilling the holes.
[imco. long winded, sorry]