Handrails ARIEL

[mbd]

Maybe the exterior bolts of the handrails could be set up and double as attachment points for storm shutters?

[ebb]

More I think about it more serious I am about that interior side rail idea.
First thing I notice: it is very comfortable to run the hands along the bottom of the windows walking thru the cabin. We're not very wide in an Ariel.

Second thing is that there is PLENTY of room to run the handrails under the windows. At least it looks like it. The inside has more cabin side depth because the deck is included in the measure. So actually the handrail would be higher under the windows rather than lower - because you'd no doubt be fastening thru the cabin side.

Third thing is that hand rails under the windows would also be something to grab and haul yourself up with - out of the low settees for instance.. And something to grab while sitting down gracefully. Or frantic in a seaway.

Fourth, Buck Algonquin may have just the fitting. Like the idea of curling fingers around a varnished rail. Especially around a round rail. The B.A. hand rail fittings are like napkin rings with TWO legs. The ring is just under an inch in diameter with the legs spread on separated pads 2 3/4" wide. (I'd guess that would put the fastening pair about 2" apart, one on top of the other installed.) The height is 2 3/8". Height to the center of the ring is 1 3/4". If the ring was filled with ash or white oak, that would allow about an inch behind it off the cabin side. Just enough for my mitts. So it's a pretty tidy fitting. Instead of the usual single fastening thru the middle of your rail, you have two separated fastenings at each attachtment point helping to counter the leverage on the rail. So it's Stronger. Also have some Bronze to look at.

I have not yet seen a live one.
But as an image the fitting looks handsome
www.deepblueyachtsupply.com
has them under 'deck hardware.'
Pricey: you'd need six at $30.83/$33.35.

Could copy the width of the legs the bronze fitting has and bandsaw out something similar in solid wood. If designed so that a single thru bolt would produce a similar wide bearing on the cabin side, you'd end up with rails as robust as these bronze ones would give you. imco.
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If you made the all-wood handrail up as a single dowel with three attached leg/brackets - glued up as a single piece - it'd be a piece of cake to mount it with three 5/16" bronze bolts drilled right thru the top of the rail. And it would emphasize the nice curve of the cabin side. You might increase the rail/dowel size to 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" and go with all mahogany. Leave plenty of room for fingers so they can't get caught between rail and cabin. It's a pleasure to take a piece of square stock - eight side it with the table saw - and round it up with a plane. Or that handy little PorterCable belt sander.
15/16" dowel required for 'stringing' on the B.A. bronze rail fittings imco needs to be a tougher wood.

[bill@ariel231]

that's a nice fitting... looks like it would make a great place to dry stuff out too, and space below the window should be clear of anyone seated on the bench below.

[mbd]

FWIW, Deep Blue Yachts is where I purchased my mooring bit. Best price I could find, and they are very responsive and helpful. I'd use them again in a heartbeat.

Something similar to those handrail fittings seem to show up on Ebay all the time. Occasionally, I've seen bronze ones too. This one is from Nautical Notables. Looks like they have a few other options too.

[ebb]

You know that BuckAlagonquin fitting with its strange 15/16" diameter must have been designed for 7/8" TUBE. Definitely a generous slip fitting!
I think extra strength is gained by using a single piece of tube from bulkhead to bulkhead under the windows - as you would with a wood dowel. Maybe tube could be wraped in tape where it sits inside the fittings.

No other common tube or pipe diameter comes close to that diameter in the fitting. I worry a little about making the wood fit the fitting. The scantlings are really not hefty enough to be safe from breaking. What do you guys think???


But suppose we went all metal...

The castings are expensive. But get a load of this...
[section here revised for clarity]
Onlinemetal has a large range of diameters and wall thicknesses of tube and offer 316 and seamless at a price. All marine catalogers sell only 304 welded. This is low end tubing - lower might be tubing made in China - who knows?
7/8" tube unless otherwise noted - per foot price.
Online/304/.049 (3/64") seamless $16.71.
................................welded $5.70
Online/316/.049 seamless $21.76
......................welded $12.82 (.065-1/16" wall)
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West Marine/.049/$8.17
Defender/.049/$4.33
............/.065 (1/16")/$4.66
Jamestown/.049/$10.52
Hamilton (per foot cut) .049/ $5.59
............................../.065/ $6.99
Who's taking a bite out of YOUR wallet?
(I know, I know, you get what you pay for,
obviously you go with whom you trust...
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Hamilton has some interesting 316 s.s. 'looped' rails with flanges that might fit the cabin side - not sure.
5 foot long 1" looped handrail with center fitting - $126
1 1/4" diameter for $160.
Also a heavy duty version: 1" - $200. 1 1/4" $208.
These ready-made handrails aren't the most elegant (compared with bronze and varnish).... but inside under the windows, covered with curtain and swagged with wet towels, they might be just the ticket. I don't know if they fit - 5 footer just might - there is the problem with the curve of the cabin side and three close spaced holes per flange....3 of them per rail. I like the 1 1/4" size, something real to grab!
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Ready made rails like these 5' Hamilton's aren't going to work with the curve of the cabin - the mid attachment point would have to have a substantial block put under it. Don't think that would look so hot. To look right, any side rail would be bent to fit. Could be a glue-lam that is routed to shape, or the cabin side is gentle enuf for a rail to be sawn from solid stock. If three points of attachment seems too light more could be added. Might copy the traditional cabin top rails outside, but beef up the scantlings I think side rails would get a lot of use and bear some big yanking loads.
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WM cat. right across the page from the rail prices shows those one post 'leaners' ( Bayliner rails) in 316 and zymak for about half the price of the bronze ones which are straight up. Jamestown in their master catalog has a big choice of powerboat rail fittings - some could work part of a side rail in the Ariel cabin. The problem (for me) is the spread/pattern of the fasteners in the available flange of these rather small fittings.

Anyone????

[mbd]

A couple of pics of how James Baldwin set up interior rails from his website: Atom Voyages

[mbd]

And another. Lots of interesting details in these photos.

[ebb]

Mike,
Nize interior isn't it?
I've looked at that first shot for years.
It's a successful lesson in how to achieve a homey non-claustrophobic openness in a small space.

Could make a pattern out of thin ply to get the curve and length of our cabin and cut rails out of 4/4 or 5/4 mahogany and get something close to the Baldwin model. Definitely the Stradivarius of cabin siderails. Especially if the finished varnished rail followed the curve of the sides.

I didn't think siderails when the window surrounds were filled. Thrubolts will make a really robust rail, and along the bottom of the windows more attachment points could be designed in, rather than less. Like the cabintop rails.

So, when I drill thru for the bolts I'll probably find the space hollow between the liner and the side. I'll find one of those 2oz syringes in the epoxy locker, make up some gell, and squirt in pads of epoxy and silica so when the rails are snuged-up nothing gets bent outof shape.

Overhead rails are often lagged with oversized screws, through the cabin laminate, into the outside rails. Jerry Powlas, GoodOldBoat's tech in their current issue explains how difficult that process is. And imco the installation is flawed by the use of lags - rather than thrubolts. Also the marine-store wood is often thinner than it ought to be - this type of railing could wrenched out at the wrong time.

Jim's siderails are definitely The Best!

[atomvoyager]

Mike of Sea Glass asked me about this so I'll post a reply here. I'd like to keep up with a few forums such as this one, but don't have the time lately to read everything.

The interior handrails under Atom's deadlights are held in place by 1/4" diameter stainless flathead screws from the outside. After drilling the holes through coachroof and inside cabin liner there was a gap I filled by injecting thickened epoxy. Then I redrilled the holes and countersunk them from outside. The screw heads were set deep enough so I could cover them with putty and then painted them over. You could use roundhead screws with flat washers or hex head lag bolts type if you want them removable and don't mind the heads being visible. You might even thru-bolt them with the nut under a wood bung.

The handrails are very useful for holding yourself in place with one hand when sitting in the windward bunk and for pulling yourself up from the bunk. They're also easier to grab sometimes than the overhead handrails when working at the galley or passing through the salon or just gazing out the windows while the boat is being tossed around.

You might get away with it, but I don't recommend using standard-sized handrails for this location because the sheer load when lifting yourself out of the bunk seems to put more side loads more often on these than handrails in other locations. Standard handrail bases are narrow in width and length. You might be able to see from the photo up the thread that mine are custom made with all bases except the ends being long enough for two screws in each base. I can hang my entire weight on these and they will not break or even flex noticeably.

James
Triton #384 Atom

[mbd]

Thanks for the info James!

[josh#74]

I have new handrails for #74. Are there any pro's/con's I should know about when using screws from the inside? I don't want to cut holes in the top of the handrails if it I don't have too. I am in the wet northwest. Thanks.

[bill@ariel231]

Josh

some things to think about ...

1. make sure the deck will stay dry. when these boats were built it was common to drill a hole in the deck and assume the caulk would keep the balsa core dry. Best practice today is to remove a half inch or so of core around the hole, seal the core with thickened epoxy and re-drill the hole prior to installing deck hardware. (several boats have examples of this technique on the gallery pages)

2. choose your caulk carefully (i used 3M 5200 a dozen years ago with no leaks to date), but any of the adhesive polyurethane calks are a good choice (silicone is not recommended).

3. for screws. most of the boats on the gallery page appear follow pearson original construction (i.e. oval head wood screws installed with finish washers). use the longest screws that will fit.

4. an astestic decision you might want to think about: store bought hand rails will sit veritical on a horizontal surface. Our coach roofs are cambered in two directions. Pearson's solution (and one i followed on A-231) was to cut a 15 degree bevel in the base of the hand rail to make the hand rail stand vertical on the curved coach roof.

cheers,
bill@ariel231

[ebb]

Some spare change
to add to Bill's excellent practical advice and methods.

I see some benefit in using machinescrews to attach exterior handrails. They are are little harder to do: you may have to predrill the holes on a drillpress to make sure they go in and come out straight.
Also you have to counterbore the holes so you can bung them which can be done more easily and precisely on the drillpress.
This method gives the longest fastener and also makes the fasteners into clamps. They also allow finessing the tightening after initial caulk set.
I'm not a fan of this method - imco it is better to put everything together wet including the screws and snug the nuts on the screws once only so the rubber seal doesn't break or tear.

So here's an arguement: instead of white caulk to match the deck I'd use a caulk that matches the wood.

I'm convinced that thin rails installed with a curve make them stronger and less prone to bending. The curve follows the natural curve of the cabin. And looks good.
It's pretty easy. You need to draw the curve line, get together a bunch of blocks, use double sided carpet-tape (with the fiberglass core) to stick them on the deck to hold the curve. You probably will find that a storebought rail already has the curve built in.


Once the rail is stabilized you'll be able to drill the fastener holes thru the deck from the top. That's a plus.
Where the holes go thru to the inside of the cabin, why not take a holesaw (1 1/4" to 2") and using the new drill hole cut out a disk in the liner. Just the liner.
Mix up some filler gel with epoxy and aerocil, put a glob in the hole and glue the disk right back in place the way it was. There is a 1/4" to 1/2" space between the cabin and the liner - so you are making a substantial unseen backer for each fastening.
When it is set redrill the hole.

You've sealed the hole from waterleaks getting inside the liner and migrating to the shelves.
You've also stabilized the liner somewhat and you aren't going to cave it in anymore when you cinch up the screws [like Pearson did and distorted the hell out of the liner decades ago].
It means you won't need to use fenderwashers to spread the load through the thin liner -
and once faired, touched up and painted only the fastener head will show.
imco


Handrails on the cabin roof probably get used more for parking butts - secure footing when moving around on the roof. They need full rounding and therefor in skinny storebought rails the counterbore for the plugs would be fairly deep. And I'd set the plugs using the wood colored caulk.
A solid shot of rubber thru the rail top to bottom, never leak!

Here's one vote against 5200.
Hybrid Life Seal (on paper) will stay pliable longer than polyurethane or polysulfide, both get hard and crack depending how your deck cooks.
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Bill's first point above about protecting the core by scooping out the core around the hole and filling with thickened epoxy to seal the rest of the core off from water intrusion and resulting rot - is extremely important. It is more by luck than anything else that you keep water out of any hole you make in a boat.
Found that a 2 ounce syringe (available from plastic and fiberglass suppliers) is an excellent tool to squirt thickened epoxy into the holes and get them completely filled.

[josh#74]

I am comforted that most ariel owners use screws from the inside. I understand that using machine bolts instead of screws is probably stronger in the long term. But I really don't want to cut holes in the top of the handrails. But I am definitely going to start using a hole saw from the inside. No more bent nail! The West Marine bought handrails are pretty beefy. I shouldn't have any problems, If I do at least the core will stay dry.

[ebb]

Hey Josh,
The bent nail deal
is to clean out a small doughnut hole around the fastener hole where it goes thru the deck CORE. The core is sandwiched between an outer frp deck layer and an inner layer of fiberglass you can't see. The deck is a sandwich of the top layer, a balsa middle, and an inner layer of fiberglass. The balsa core needs isolation from fresh water which turns balsa into tuna fish thru any hole you (or Pearson) put in the deck. So you create a waterproof dam by undercutting the balsa between the fiberglass layers a 1/4" or a little more and seal with thickened epoxy.
Common restoration practice.

The cabin liner is an entirely different molded SHELL that was put in when they assembled the boat to make the accomodation look pretty. The liner is NOT structural. It is cosmetic. They intentionally made the liner a little smaller to make it easy to fit it in when they put the deck and hull together.

The space is just a result of funky manufacturing. Of course as a dead air space it also acts as insulation.

Keeping fresh water out of the core is a different thing than keeping water out of the space between the bottom of the deck (which you can't see) and the liner. If water gets thru the deck sandwich it will collect on the inside of the liner shell and run to the sides under the side deck and drip down onto the shelves.

Holesawing a hole in the liner is not a structural issue.
As it exists the liner really makes it impossible to hold the outside rail on properly. You'd make a better connection putting your screws thru the sandwich alone if you didn't have the liner. But because of the liner you need access to the fastening. The liner is a bendy unsubstantial thing - that's why the disk-out filler-in idea. Just an idea, but that's what I've been doing with deck-mounted stuff on Little Gull.